Steve Kerr, Mike D'Antoni,

[bbqjones]

hell yeah, white boys in da house. if i werent half black, i wouldnt have even listened to the last two minutes. that shit is dope.

bwahahaha. lets do this again en la manana.

bwahhaahahhahahahaha this song is sooooooooooooooooooo fucking funny.

[Dinsdale]

White boy brothers -- Jewish, about 5'1", whose favorite lyrical subjects are about how badass they are at hoops and how much ass they kick... can't go wrong there.

One of the two best club-bands I've ever seen, and I've seen a boatload.

Call him the Big Dutch Boy because he owns the paint
Call him the Big Heat Wave cause he'll make you feel faint
Call him the Big Windex cause he's cleaning the glass
Or just call him Big Daddy cause he's whoopin your ass

[bbqjones]

~bump~

genius genius move.

shaqs stats for 20 minutes tonight-

12 pts
8 boards
4 blocks
1 flagrant foul
4 total personal fouls
1 win- 104-96

[Dinsdale]

My initial reaction is that this was a crazy, borderline suicidal trade.

But regardless of my first impressions, I'll enjoy watching the show.


Let the games begin.


Best NBA season in many years.

[Diogenes]

My final (pre-Shaq actually playing) thoughts...

Phoenix actually is among the tops in the league in two defensive catagories-steal and blocks.

Dead last in rebounds. This should help that a tad.

Plus this just gives them an extra dimension. They can always go small ball if the situation calls for it. But now they have a low post presence in the halfcourt game, Amare will have more room to move on offense with Shaq pulling in the defense, and he can run the floor and let Shaq be the guy to throw the outlet pass.

Stay Tuned.

[bbqjones]

all the way to tampa* bay, beat LA.



*mons venus will see me when this is all said and done. phx pals will come to florida for spring break, and ill spend 200 bucks to suck on some crackheads titties.

[Dinsdale]

Phoenix actually is among the tops in the league in two defensive catagories-steal and blocks.

WHOA!


So, you mean Phoenix has the worst-defending gaurd in the league, who does nothing but stand in the midcourt passing lanes waving his arms around like an idiot, and gets his teammates to "defend" in much the same manner... they lead the league in steals?

Well just color me fucking shocked. In my 30+ years of avidly following the NBA, I NEVER would have guessed that those two things went hand-in-hand.


And Phoenix has the second-worst defending big man in the league, who is NEVER in position and constantly has to come from the weak-side (although it could be argued that any side that Amare is on is the "weak side" on defense)... they make a lot of blocks?


Wow, this is some majorly shocking stuff here.

Man, who ever would have thunk it?

[bbqjones]

dont hate the playa, get some goddamn kryptonite motherfucker.

dont know where dio got his stats, but most of those went to miami. time will tell, but im pretty sure THE NEXT TWO CHAMPIONSHIPS GO TO THE PHOENIX SUNS [BOLD] BIG BOLD

good luck making the playoffs portland fan. should be a real barnstormer.

bwahodenahaha

[Dinsdale]

THE NEXT TWO CHAMPIONSHIPS GO TO THE PHOENIX SUNS [BOLD] BIG BOLD

No freaking chance. Throw your free agent bucks at players who are at least vaguely familiar with that "defense" thing next time... and just because some douchebag can't make a shot, it doesn't make him a "defensive specialist."

good luck making the playoffs portland fan.

Not looking so good this year. But make your time... make your time. The funny thing about it, is you guys know what's about to happen. Denial is your only friend in your future outlook.

[RadioFan]

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/262/shaqphxvc9.png

A belated RACK for this, btw.

I described this post to someone last weekend and they laughed. Hard.


Btw ... 'q, Dio, I've never really hated the Suns, but now it's like I'm forced to do so, simply because of the lummox. The reason I can't stand him is what he once said about David Robinson: [slow, low, dumbfuck voice] I respuct hum as a person, but I don't respuct hum as a playu. [/voice]

That's pretty funny, given that D.Rob -- just like almost every other talented center or quasi-center in their prime ('sup Duncan) -- pretty much schooled O'Neal, every time they played, with things like footwork, passing and shooting.

[bbqjones]

spurs fan has no right to enter this conversation.

robert horry much

[Dinsdale]

Even the ESPN honks were laughing at Phoenix' "defense."

I couldn't stop laughing.

They shored up their post D by getting another guy who absolutely refuses to defend any play that's set up high (which a huge chuck of NBA teams are doing these days)?

All Nash did was wave his arms around... again. Derek Fischer probably isn't the guy you want spotting up with his defender 10 feet away (but waving his arms around).

And Phoenix' "defensive specialist" continued his long streak of making the guy he's specially-defending the star of Sportcenter... until his own guy knocked him out.



Good game, though... thoroughly entertaining. If that comes down as a playoff series, Phoenix has no chance. The only thing that kept them in the game was Odom's inability to box out Amare. Get Bynum back in there to body Shaq, and Gasol shifts down a spot, and he'll keep Supid Tall And TattooedOnTheNeck away from the hoop. Then, Bell-Rung will do his usual of getting posterized by the guy he talked shit on (Who?).

[RumpleForeskin]

Agreed. Marion would have pulled that game out for them.

[Mook]

Even the ESPN honks were laughing at Phoenix' "defense."

I couldn't stop laughing.

They shored up their post D by getting another guy who absolutely refuses to defend any play that's set up high (which a huge chuck of NBA teams are doing these days)?

All Nash did was wave his arms around... again. Derek Fischer probably isn't the guy you want spotting up with his defender 10 feet away (but waving his arms around).

And Phoenix' "defensive specialist" continued his long streak of making the guy he's specially-defending the star of Sportcenter... until his own guy knocked him out.



Good game, though... thoroughly entertaining. If that comes down as a playoff series, Phoenix has no chance. The only thing that kept them in the game was Odom's inability to box out Amare. Get Bynum back in there to body Shaq, and Gasol shifts down a spot, and he'll keep Supid Tall And TattooedOnTheNeck away from the hoop. Then, Bell-Rung will do his usual of getting posterized by the guy he talked shit on (Who?).

Are you implying that the Lakers played "defense" last night? Who was checking Nash? Stoudemire?? Hell, even Grant Hill?? Frankly a game like that happens when good players are on their game. Neither team wants to slow it down and bang it out......pretty decent game by both teams.

As for the "defensive specialist" which players in the league lockdown Kobe??

Stoudemire definitely had a shitty night last night......what 30+ points 15 or so boards......if only the whole league sucked so much.... As for defense, Stoudemire has played much of his career out of position at the 5.

[Dinsdale]

As for the "defensive specialist" which players in the league lockdown Kobe??

No one that I can think of. But I can think of one that talks about how much BODE he has for getting lit up for 40+ every time out.

As for defense, Stoudemire has played much of his career out of position at the 5.

Have you ever even seen a Phoenix game in the last several years? Amare REFUSES to defend the high pick-and-roll. He's just not smart enough to figure it out. And apparently he buys into the same excuse-making that you do. It doesn't matter if you were to put me or BBQ at the 5 -- there's an inherent obligation to at least close the distance on a high pick, rather than let your opponent do whatever he wants.


But let's see -- Amare finally got to play at his "natural position" we keep hearing about -- and while he had one of his frequent bigtime offensive games, he got absolutely lit the FUCK up on the other end... by a career small forward who is filling in for an injured player.


What's his excuse now? That whole "natural position" thing just went out the window in one fell swoop. The guy is the second-worst defending big in the game... period (Zach Randolph being the worst). Unlikely to get better at this point. But keep making excuses for absolute shitty play.

[Dinsdale]

How's that trade working out, anyway?

[bbqjones]

not too good so far dins 3-4.

but we've beaten the shit out you portlosers 7 or eight now. i know, i know. just wait till oden. bwahahah. be a good guy and just admit phx owns you fuckers and you are bitter and hope for devastation in the desert. shaq and linton johnson and gordon gecko are taking us all the way.

[Diogenes]

I really can't get too pumped about beating Portland, especially after choking to the Sixers. I mean, it's fucking Portland. What next, High Fives all arond for getting over on the Nets? The next few days should tell us something though...

@Denver Tonight (ESPN)
Utah Friday
San Antonio Sunday (ABC)

Time to step it up.

[Dinsdale]

phx owns you fuckers

89/90 sayswhat?

91/92 sayswhat? How did that last game ever at your old stadium work out?

98/99 sayswhat?

Those were years you figured to win it all, right?

"Owns" is a pretty strong word coming from fans of the Empty Trophy Case, who have been left for dead on the side of the road numerous times by the team you claim to "own."

Funny stuff.

[Diogenes]

Empty Trophy Case

The Suns have never won an NBA championship -- just like Miami before Shaq arrived. And if they're smart, they can take the one (at least) they'll win and milk it for 30 years -- just like Portland.

[Rack Fu]

From ESPN.com

An easy way to juxtapose this is by examining the collision between theory and reality. "Theory" below is the case that's been made by the Suns and others in favor of the trade. "Reality" is the actual result thus far.

To wit:

Theory: The Suns have better off-court chemistry without Marion
Reality: The Suns had better on-court chemistry with Marion

The Suns thought they could play better without Marion doing his Debbie Downer act in the locker room, but his effect on the court was decidedly more positive. Take a look at Phoenix's performance with Marion on and off the court the past few seasons and the numbers will hammer you over the head: He was essential to making this system work.

On a per-game basis, Phoenix was about 10 points better with Marion on the floor over the past three and a half seasons. Ten points is a huge, huge gap -- it's the difference between the Hornets and Bobcats, essentially -- so for one player to have that impact so consistently over a period of years speaks volumes about his importance to their system. In fact, his differential was greater than that of Amare Stoudemire in each of the past four seasons.

Suns' point differential per 48 minutes
Marion on court Marion off court Difference
2007-08 +9.6 -1.5 +11.1
2006-07 +9.7 +0.5 +10.2
2005-06 +6.5 +1.9 +4.6
2004-05 +10.5 -3.1 +14.6
Source: 82games.com

That trend has continued in Marion's absence, with opponents outscoring the Suns by 2.4 points per game since the trade. Many scribes have already detailed the ways in which Marion was integral to Phoenix's system, so I won't belabor the point here. Suffice it to say the Suns haven't received an equally offsetting contribution from Shaq.

As for the locker room stuff, I don't want to minimize whatever issues there were between Marion and the other Suns -- certainly you have to wonder about a guy who is traded from first place to last and seems happy about it. But in this exchange, Phoenix appeared to lose so much in on-court chemistry that almost no amount of esprit de corps could make up for it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: The Suns are struggling only because of all the turnovers
Reality: The Suns are making turnovers because they traded for them

A lot of the chatter from Phoenix is that they're struggling right now because they're making too many turnovers, and that this brief nuisance will go away once they've worked out the kinks.

Somebody needs to remind them that they traded one of the league's most extreme low-turnover players for one of its most extreme high-turnover players. Of course they're going to turn the ball over more; it would be shocking if they didn't.

As a Sun, Marion turned the ball over on just 6.3 percent of his possessions, the third-best rate among the league's 62 power forwards and the ninth-best overall (his rate has since gone up, after making 26 miscues in 11 games in his new role in Miami).

In contrast, O'Neal has turned the ball over on 18.3 percent of his possessions this season, a rate more than double that of Marion. Only 10 players in basketball have a worse rate, and Shaq is the only one in that group whose teammates actually throw him the ball.

By comparison, the next closest player with a usage rate over 20 is New York's Eddy Curry, who turns it over on 15.1 percent of his possessions. So Shaq is in a league of his own for high-usage offensive players who turn the ball over. As a Sun he's handing it over to opponents three times a game, or three times as often as Marion did. There's no reason to expect the trend to abate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: Shaq's presence improves the Suns' rebounding
Reality: Shaq's presence improves the Suns' rebounding

OK, we can throw Phoenix a bone on this one. The Suns had the league's worst rebound rate at the time of the trade; with Shaq's help, they're already out of the cellar.

With Marion, the Suns grabbed 20.6 percent of their offensive misses and 69.2 percent of the defensive caroms. That has improved dramatically in the eight games with Shaq, especially at the defensive end -- the Suns have grabbed 78.5 percent of opponents' misses, and over the course of the eight games actually have a rebounding advantage on their opponents.

Unfortunately, this one positive hasn't nearly offset all the negatives. Such as …
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: Phoenix can still run with Shaq
Reality: Phoenix's opponents can run on Shaq

Last season, the Suns scored 17.0 fast-break points per game, the third-most in the league. That won't surprise people, but another stat might: Phoenix was also very good at cutting off the other team's break. The Suns permitted only 10.5 fast-break points per game, which ranked fourth in the NBA.

Keep that in mind as you look at these numbers with Shaq. Phoenix's transition game doesn't seem to have slowed down much -- they're at 17.8 fast-break points per game in the eight games since Shaq arrived.

But their opponents' running game is the real story. Phoenix's opposition is scoring a whopping 19.9 fast-break points per game, or roughly double what the Suns gave up last season with Marion. Even the plodding Pistons, who play at the league's slowest pace, rolled Phoenix for 20 fast-break points in the Suns' own gym.

Obviously, Shaq is a huge part of this -- a staple of nearly every Phoenix game has been the sight of O'Neal barely getting over half court while somebody dunks on the Suns' basket. Which takes us to the next problem:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: Having Shaq in the middle solidifies the defense
Reality: Losing Marion on the wing worsens the defense

At the time of the trade, Phoenix ranked 12th in the league in defensive efficiency (points allowed per 100 possessions), at 103.0. Since then? They're at 109.6. As you can see in the rankings, that number for a full season would put them behind the Knicks as the league's worst defense.

Much has been made of Marion's ability to defend quick point guards and remove that responsibility from Steve Nash, and indeed several quick point guards (Chris Paul, Andre Miller, Baron Davis and Mike Conley) have had nice games against the Suns lately. Also, as outlined above, the Suns' transition defense was a strong suit thanks to Marion's speed and agility; that obviously isn't the case with Shaq.

However, there's one other part of the equation folks might be missing: Marion made life easier for Raja Bell because he could defend bigger 3s. Watching Phoenix's rough night in Denver on Wednesday, it was easy to see the impact of his absence.

The Suns had to put Bell on the much bigger Carmelo Anthony. Anthony pounded Bell on the blocks, putting him in foul trouble much of the night and grabbing six offensive boards en route to a 30-point night. Similar troubles happened against Memphis (Rudy Gay blew up for 36 in a game that was close 'til the last five minutes), Philadelphia (Andre Iguodala had 32 points on 15-of-23 shooting), and Washington (the Wizards played Antawn Jamison at the 3 and he scored 28 points).

The Suns' upcoming schedule doesn't do them any favors in this regard. They still face Anthony and Gay twice more and Iguodala once, plus they have big 3s like Richard Jefferson, Josh Howard and Ron Artest on the remaining slate. Using Bell, Grant Hill or a whole lot of smoke and mirrors, somehow they have to improve the D against players of this ilk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: The Suns' style was less effective in the playoffs because teams made them play half-court
Reality: The Suns' style was less effective in the playoffs because they played better teams

This is perhaps the most confounding part of the Suns' reasoning behind the Shaq trade: The idea that in the slower pace of the playoffs, having Shaq would be to their advantage.

This might be a valid reason for making the trade, if one knew the pace of Phoenix's recent playoff games was significantly slower.

But look at the Suns in the Nash era. They haven't played much slower in the playoffs than they have in the regular season. For instance, according to 82games.com, last season they took 73 percent of their shots in the first 15 seconds of the shot clock in the regular season, and 73 percent in the playoffs. And rather than slowing things down, their opponents actually played faster, launching 35 percent of their shots in the first 10 seconds compared to 30 percent in the regular season.

A similar thing happened in 2004-05, when 75 percent of Phoenix's shots came in the first 15 seconds of the clock in both the regular season and the playoffs.

The only season in which the Suns' numbers slowed noticeably was in 2005-06, and that was entirely because of a single tactical decision by one opponent. The Lakers essentially sabotaged their own offense to slow the pace to a crawl in a seven-game series in the first round that season. I argued at the time, and continue to believe, that the tactic cost them the series.

That brings us to the next point: It takes two to tango. When the Suns have played slow in the postseason, the opponent has been the main reason. In 2005 the Suns lost to San Antonio, who played the league's eighth-slowest pace. In 2006, they lost to Dallas, who was the fifth-slowest. San Antonio continued the progression last season, playing the fourth-slowest pace and knocking Phoenix out of the playoffs.

I wonder if these losses caused Phoenix to internalize the idea that they lose to slow-paced teams in the postseason. However, a far more important differentiating factor was that they lost to better teams. In all three seasons, the Suns' opponent had a superior regular-season point differential, so it shouldn't have come as a shock that they lost. After all, the one time they played a slow-paced team with inferior regular-season results -- Memphis, the sixth-slowest team in 2004-05 -- the Suns blew them off the court in four games.

So over the past three seasons, the Suns have had only a minor deviation in pace in the playoffs, at worst. And that's a justification for a massive transformation of the roster? Furthermore, the irony is that a slower pace might not be what the Suns see this postseason.

Look at Phoenix's potential playoff opponents. The three Texas teams are plodders (though Dallas' profile with Jason Kidd may be changing), but the others can run all day. Golden State and Denver actually play a faster pace than the Suns, and the Lakers and Utah aren't far behind. If Phoenix ends up playing one of those teams -- or better yet, has a playoff path that includes three of them -- won't it seem kind of silly that they traded Marion for Shaq to accommodate for a slower postseason pace?

Of course, that might be all moot, which takes us to our final point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theory: This trade can't be measured until we see the Suns in the playoffs
Reality: We might not see the Suns in the playoffs

Despite its recent struggles, Phoenix seems in a comfortable position as far as reaching the playoffs goes. The Suns have a 3.5-game lead over Denver, and also are ahead of Dallas and Golden State. Finishing ahead of any of those three will guarantee them a trip to the postseason, and with just 21 games left, there isn't much time for the others to catch up.

But remember what I said about Phoenix's schedule earlier? It's rough. The Suns' finishing kick includes one top opponent after another, starting with tonight's contest against Utah. Included in that finish are two games each against Denver and Golden State. Moreover, the Suns are all but certain to lose the tiebreaker to Golden State and need a sweep to avoid the same fate with Denver.

The Hollinger Playoff Odds are starting to sense the Suns as less than a sure thing, with Phoenix's playoff odds dropping below 90 percent this week for the first time in eons. Even that percentage overstates their chances, because a good chunk of their power ranking is based on their success when they had Marion.

If you look at how the Suns have played since the trade, and the difficulty of the remaining schedule, a finish somewhere around 9-12 or 10-11 in their final 21 games doesn't seem unreasonable.

That would put them at 49 or 50 wins, which should get them in … unless the losses are to the wrong teams. If they fail to beat Denver or Golden State, for instance, it's likely that both of those teams would reach the 49-win threshold themselves. And since those teams would win the tiebreakers, it would leave Phoenix out of the mix.

I should emphasize that it's still more likely the Suns make it than not; one brief hot streak should pretty much wrap it up. That said, it would be a rather ironic conclusion to the Shaq trade. The stated purpose was to help the Suns once they got to the postseason, but nobody ever considered that it might prevent them from getting there.

[Dinsdale]

The Suns had to put Bell on the much bigger Carmelo Anthony. Anthony pounded Bell on the blocks, putting him in foul trouble much of the night and grabbing six offensive boards en route to a 30-point night. Similar troubles happened against Memphis (Rudy Gay blew up for 36 in a game that was close 'til the last five minutes), Philadelphia (Andre Iguodala had 32 points on 15-of-23 shooting), and Washington (the Wizards played Antawn Jamison at the 3 and he scored 28 points).

I do take exception to this part of the article. I've said it before, for years -- Phoenix' "defensive specialist" gets lit up by anyone with any game on a nightly basis, and trading Marion didn't æffect this, it merely exposed it a little more.

[Diogenes]

Interesting article, and good points all around. Two things it misses...

A) Marion was gone after this season anyway, which everyone knows and
B) Something everyone doesn't remeber except for longtime Suns fans- Marion's tendency to go into the tank offensivly in the playoffs. Look at the Suns elimination series over the last three seasons and contrast Matrix' numbers with those before said series.

Again, only time will tell.

[bbqjones]

lets forget about this thread until playoff time or forever. the suns have been painful to watch.

not as excited nine games in. and the spurs probably kick our ass on national tv tomorrow.

should put us one.5 out of the nine spot.

[Dinsdale]

B) Something everyone doesn't remeber except for longtime Suns fans- Marion's tendency to go into the tank offensivly in the playoffs.

06-07 regular season -- 17.5 PPG on 52.4% shooting, 1.04TO per game

06-07 playoffs -- 16.9 PPG on 50.0% shooting, 1.09TO per game


05-06 regular season -- 21.8 PPG on 52.5% shooting, 1.43 TO per game

05-06 playoffs -- 20.4 PPG on 48.9% shooting, 1.10 TO per game



04-05 regular season -- 19.4 PPG on 47.6% shooting, 1.54 TO per game

04-05 playoffs -- 17.6 PPG on 48.4% shooting, 1.40 TP per game



Yeah, I guess it does take a longtime Suns fan to understand that -- since it's never actually happened outside of your mind, and being a "longtime Suns fan" denotes stupidity, which is what a statistical comparison seems to indicate is the cause of your beliefs.



But maybe we should get a second opinion from Steven A Smith?

[bbqjones]

im not gonna quote stuart scott, or scoop jackson or steven a negroenough.

big win and doesnt mean a whole lot yet. but big big win. and im happy today/night im finna have sone tequila shots and perhaps masturbate a few times.

[Diogenes]

Great game, not only the W but they are showing what they'll need to bring in the playoffs. The schedule over the next two weeks should be a little easier...


Tues 11 Memphis
Thu 13 Golden State TNT
Sat 15 Sacramento
Tue 18 @ Portland
Wed 19 @ Seattle
Sat 22 Houston

Two good apponents and four skunks.

Then Detroit, Boston, Philly (and New Jersey) on the road. That will be interesting...