Ranking the top programs right now...

[Mr T]

Maybe in their own minds, but I don't remember them ending the season at the top of any poll that year, let alone the two that carry the most weight.

I think they finished 1 in a couple of computer polls and I think Golf Digest put them at #1 that year.

A polls a poll. Doesnt matter which poll you use.

D1A doesnt have NCs.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

And I know we all hate giving USC their due.

Not at all, I believe in giving credit where credit is due, and USC clearly is one of the top programs in the country right now.

But since the BCS started, the BCS awards the BCS national championship, while other entities may award their ___ national championship; in 2003, USC won the AP national championship and LSU won the BCS national championship.

Fixed. You were only six letters off, but they're important letters...

[Sky]

Fixed. You were only six letters off, but they're important letters...

Dude, you are fucking nuts. If CU goes wins the BCS NC game next year but there were four teams that finished undefeated and the other two didn't play each other...we could end up with three undefeated teams. If the BCS crowns CU, the AP crowns Florida, and Golf Digest crowns Oklahoma, who won a NC that year.

Right now and since 99 we play w/in the BCS, period.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Fixed. You were only six letters off, but they're important letters...

Dude, you are fucking nuts. If CU goes wins the BCS NC game next year but there were four teams that finished undefeated and the other two didn't play each other...we could end up with three undefeated teams. If the BCS crowns CU, the AP crowns Florida, and Golf Digest crowns Oklahoma, who won a NC that year.

Right now and since 99 we play w/in the BCS, period.

Your scenario is not only ludicrous, but impossible - there's no way CU and Oklahoma could finish undefeated in the same year. :wink:

But if such a scenario played out with CU, Florida and, say, Ohio St., I would have no problem with Florida claiming a national championship if they were #1 in the final AP poll. It's not like I begrudge Georgia Tech their 1990 coaches' poll MNC. I don't view it as any more or less valid or prestigious than CU's AP MNC. If Ohio St. wanted to claim a national title from a golfing magazine, they have every right to do so, although I doubt they would, since they'd be laughed at and ridiculed for years to come.

If you're trying to argue that the AP poll has no more meaning than a Golf Digest poll or a Good Housekeeping poll or the T1B CFB forum poll, you're just delusional. Even the NCAA itself recognizes the AP national championship as a legitimate national championship (obviously, in the absence of a playoff, I use the term "legitimate" rather loosely).

http://ncaasports.com/football/mens/history

Ultimately, only time will tell who is right or wrong in this argument, but I'd be willing to bet that 20 or 30 years down the road, the majority of CFB fans will still consider the 2003 USC team a legitimate (Mythical) National Champion, just as the majority of CFB fans do today. You can hem and haw all you want about what everyone "agreed to," but the simple fact is that the AP poll still carries huge significance in this sport, and I'm guessing it will continue to do so until we get a playoff.

[SoCalTrjn]

And I know we all hate giving USC their due.

Not at all, I believe in giving credit where credit is due, and USC clearly is one of the top programs in the country right now.

But since the BCS started, the BCS awards the national championship, while other entities may award their ___ national championship; in 2003, USC won the AP national championship and LSU won the national championship.

Are you on crack??
If the BCS awardes the national championship than the NCAA would recognize BCS titles.... they dont. The BCS is just the same old reheated Bowl Coaliton dog shit with some computer polls and the Pac 10 and Big 10 involved. If it was valid they wouldnt change the forumla every fucking year because the system would have worked.
Bottom line is the #1 team in the Nation in 2003 was USC, they were number 1 in both polls that had been considered the end all be all for the last 30 years. Some computer geeks put LSU a couple points ahead of USC and an Oklahoma team that had been blown out in the CCG ahead of both USC and LSU and you want to put faith in those computer polls?
After the Bowls USC was still number 1 in the AP and the coaches, who were contractually obligated to vote for LSU still did not vote for them unanimously.
You continue to say that everyone agreed to using the BCS, where has everyone agreed to that at? if they all had agreed why do they change it every year? why are there still teams and conferences left out?

[Sky]

You continue to say that everyone agreed to using the BCS, where has everyone agreed to that at? if they all had agreed why do they change it every year? why are there still teams and conferences left out?

Who? Are you serious?

# The BCS is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Division I-A conferences, the director of athletics at the University of Notre Dame, and representatives of the bowl organizations. The conferences are Atlantic Coast, Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Conference USA, Mid-American, Mountain West, Sun Belt, Pacific 10, Southeastern and Western Athletic.

# The conference commissioners and the Notre Dame athletics director make decisions regarding all BCS issues, in consultation with an athletics directors advisory group and subject to the approval of a presidential oversight committee whose members represent all 117 Division 1-A programs.

Or try this. Could you make this any easier?

But you are right. They probably don't manage something they didn't agree upon.

[Vito Corleone]

LSU won the computer ranking championship. USC was #1 in both the AP and Coaches Poll until the coaches were contractually obligated to vote for LSU (if its contractually obligated, is it still a poll?)
The computers put LSU in that game, programmers with an agenda able to pass off their biases by saying the computer did it.

USC was number 1 in both polls, LSU won the Mickey Mouse Computer title

This is what pisses me off; there was a set of rules that everyone agreed to but when things don't work out for USC they think they can change the rules. I could care less what the AP thinks the rules were set in stone and there was one champion in 03 and that was the team that has the crystal football.

[Killian]

Bullshit. For as long as college football has been around, multiple NC's in a single year have been recognized ('sup Alabama). In the 1991 Orange Bowl, Colorado (who was number 1) beat Notre Dame (who was number 4 or 5 I think), yet Ga Tech gets to claim a NC for that year. Just because a new system comes in and tries to crown a champ without having any real set in stone rules to determine who plays for their new MNC, doesn't rule out other polls as well.

What everyone is looking past is that the BCS doesn't crown anything. They select the two teams to play in their championship game. When the oldest and most respected part of the BCS (the AP) decided to break away because of this bullshit, everyone knew this day was coming.

Until that crystal football has the same wording that the trophy (or 5th grade participation plaque) for the other sports champions, the AP carries just as much weight as the BCS. That football doesn't say "NCAA National Champions". It doesn't even say "BCS National Champions". It says "The National Champion" and then has what two polls recognize this national champion.

I guess the AP should come out with a stupid fucking trophy that says "The National Champion" so we can get rid of the stupid "they play for the crystal football" argument. Every player in the country playes for a fat fucking ring that says "National Champion" and two teams got that ring. In fact, if the coaches weren't contractually obligated to vote for a certain team in 2003, only one team would have rings and LSU would be left crying with Auburn.

For one side to claim they have the "real" championship and the other doesn't is fucking stupid. It's like arguing between "tastes great" and "less filling". Until there is a playoff, this type of shit can and will happen. Sucks for LSU, but USC is just as much of a NC as them and in some eyes, even more so.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gets it.

[Killian]

I want them to win a National Championship. I would like it if they won both the AP and BCS, but either is fine. For Notre Dame, they would likely have to win the BCS because I don't trust the voters after they fucked Notre Dame in '89 and '93. But if it came down to it and ND won the BCS title game at 12-1 and Michigan won the AP NC at 12-1, or vice versa, it's a split NC.

After next year I want Weis to be able to flaunt a NC ring on his fat fingers instead of a Super Bowl ring. However that is acomplished is of no worry to me.

[Killian]

Again, you're mixing your metaphors. In this situation, I am the steak lover.

How many BCS All Americans has LSU produced recently?

[Killian]

Whatever dude. Be happy with an AP championship if you want.

Meanwhile, LSU and OSU are playing for to see who will be the first to win two national championships in the BCS era.

See, they're not though. USC has national championships in 2003 and 2004. That is the BCS era. LSU and OSU are playing to see who will be the first team with 2 BCS championships.

So what happens if the BCS goes away? There will be no more National Champions?

[Killian]

Before the BCS, there could be split national championships because there was not a national championship game, people had to vote in order to determine who was #1.

Now there is a championship game, and the winner of that game is the national champion.

Even now, there is not a BCS National Championship game. There is a BCS Championship game, the winner of that is then considered the BCS National Champion. The BCS is an accumulation of other polls, both human and computer.

Why is it that the coaches can vote for whomever the fuck they want during the season, but are contractually obligated to vote based on who wins a game they don't have much of a say in setting up?

In the two polls that rank teams to start a season, USC was #1 in both before the bowls were announced. They won their bowl game, yet had to give half the national championship to a team that the coaches didn't want to vote for.

LSU won the national championship on a technicality.

[SunCoastSooner]

And I understand that USC is upset that they didn't win the national championship, so much so that they now choose to ignore the rules that were established before the season began.

When playing a poker game, and USC fan doesn't like how the game turns out, does USC fan change the rules so that a straight beats a full house?

In your analogy, the people who run the Poker game are the ones that changed the rules so that a straight beats a full house. In 2003, USC had the full house and LSU was the one holding the straight.

I disagree. I recognize LSU as the national champs that season. I see LSU as the team with the full house.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Before the BCS, there could be split national championships because there was not a national championship game, people had to vote in order to determine who was #1.

Now there is a championship game, and the winner of that game is the national champion.

I'll take one last stab at explaining this to you. From reading your posts over the years, I know you're an intelligent guy, so if you still can't wrap your head around this, I'll just have to assume that you're trolling.

There can still be split national championships in the BCS era. This was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in 2003 when USC went into the Rose Bowl ranked #1 in both polls, won their game convincingly, and won the AP National Championship. If the goal of the BCS was/is to prevent split national championships, they should have made sure they had all their ducks in a row. As it stands, they didn't, and shortly thereafter the AP refused to allow the BCS to even use their poll anymore.

The AP is not some fly-by-night operation. They are not the equivalent of a golf magazine. They have been awarding national championships since 1934 and those championships have been universally recognized the entire time. As I mentioned before, the NCAA's own website acknowledges AP National Championships, even those won after the inception of the BCS. CFB Data Warehouse recognizes them. ESPN recognizes them. Every football fan on the planet with a modicum of common sense recognizes them.

I understand that you're in a unique position as a fan of the only school to win a BCS NC without winning the AP NC. It's unfortunate too, because it's not even LSU's fault. Oklahoma had no business playing in the BCS NCG that year. Hell, even if the BCS had just made the common sense requirement that you have to win your conference to play for an NC (something they still haven't done, despite the Nebraska debacle of '01 and the OU debacle of '03), we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now. But as it stands, the BCS is a flawed system, and those flaws were never more glaring than in 2003, when LSU and USC were denied the chance to determine a true, undisputed national champion on the field. But you can't blame USC for claiming a national championship that they have every right to. If you want to get mad at someone, get mad at the BCS for still not fixing this problem four years later.

Saying that the AP title is a Big Mac to the BCS's steak is just asinine. I'd probably be willing to grant you that the BCS championship carries slightly more significance, but it's nowhere near that big of a disparity. I'd say the AP NC is a ribeye while the BCS NC is a filet mignon. Considering the circumstances, you should just be happy with the filet, rather than trying to disparage the ribeye of the guy at the next table, who probably should've had both steaks if the kitchen hadn't screwed up the order...