Thoughts on the ND season

[Killian]

Some of you asked (T REX specifically) for a “non smack” explanation of what ND’s problems have been so far. Everyone can look at the stats (last in most every significant offensive category, 0 offensive TD’s, 13 points in 3 games, etc.) and then joke about Weis and the fact that he is considered an offensive genius. Everyone can read the columns written by Pat Forde, Jay Marrioti and the NYT comparing Weis and Willingham and make a snap judgement. That’s a whole other topic, but some of it is germane to this discussion. This will be a bit long winded, but here goes.

First and foremost, Weis is to blame for the way this offense is struggling. I did not see the UofM game, so I’m basing this off the Georgia Tech and PSU games.

Everyone knows that Weis is arrogant. It was this arrogance that lead to him trying to implement the spread for Demetrius Jones. I’m sure he thought that by going to WVU and speaking to Rodriguez for 3 days that he could run it just as well. Obviously, he was very wrong and it led to the offense we saw against Georgia Tech.

Against PSU, Weis called a great game but it was hard to see that because of the blown assignments by the offensive line. For example, on the first series there was a screen pass called to Armando Allen that got about 15 yards. Could have gone for much more if the LG actually blocked a single player. The center took out two guys (one of which was the LG’s responsibility) but wasn’t there for his second responsibility, because he had to take care of the LG’s man. On the same drive, Clausen scrambles for 10 yards and a first down. On that play, he had single coverage for the WR and his TE Carlson. Carlson had a LB and was running a post and had his man beat. The ball wasn’t thrown because two PSU players were on top of Clausen because the offensive line couldn’t sustain their blocks for more than a second or two. On the second or third series, there was a fake FB dive, pitch to the RB called that was dropped by Aldridge. There wasn’t a PSU player for 10 yards. These are just a few instances.

So while the offensive game plan was a good one, it was poorly executed because of the offensive line struggles. This too comes back to Weis. He is the one that hired Latina (OL coach) and it is his unit that is struggling. The second biggest difference between Willingham and Weis to date (the first biggest being recruiting) is that Weis has shown the ability to see when coaches need to be replaced, and replacing them. It happened with Vaas and Minter, it didn’t happen at all under Willingham.

When Weis was hired, the thing I liked most was the staff he put together. Weis had never been a head coach, so he was surrounding himself with coaches that had been at the college level (Minter, Lewis, and David Cutcliffe). The best asset on the staff was Cutcliffe. He had been a very successful coach at a shit school, and he had the reputation of a great offensive mind as well, and had used it in the college game. Weis’s biggest mistake so far has been his NFL like approach during game week. It worked well in 2005 and 2006 because he had a veteran offense with established starters. They didn’t need to hit and prove who should be starting; they needed to work on the mental game. With this year’s team, they needed to prove on the practice field who should be on the ones playing on game day.
It appears that Weis has at least acknowledged this because he canceled his press conference yesterday and had a full contact practice day. He has also said that they will be hitting all week. This should have been done in the spring and fall, but at least a change was made and it’s being done.

The other thing that Cutcliffe could have provided is another opinion as to the type of game plan to run and the plays that needed to be called. There is no one on the offensive side of the ball with the balls or pedigree to challenge Weis in either department. Cutcliffe had both.

T REX, you wanted this non-smack, so I’m giving you my best non-smack version. But I wanted to address one of your points when you were going back and forth with Lax. He was making the argument that ND is lacking senior leadership and key players at certain positions. You came back with this:

I think its very relevant to your THEORY:

"Florida wasn't supposed to be this good this fast. The Gators have only 10 seniors and 11 juniors. They've played 27 freshmen in their first three games. More than 70 percent of Florida's roster is composed of freshmen and sophomores.

Hmmmmm.......basically TWO recruiting classes

While Florida is winning with many players who are young (Tebow, Harvin, etc.) take a look at their line:

LT Phil Trautwain SR
LG Jim Tartt JR
C Drew Miller Sr
RG Maurice Hurt rFR
RT Carlton Medder SR

You have three seniors, one junior and one redshirt freshman. I have no idea how these players were ranked coming out of high school, but I know Trautwain was highly recruited. I’m assuming that all of these players were heavily recruited. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Now let’s take a look at ND’s o-line:

LT Paul Duncan JR
LG Mike Turkovich JR
C John Sullivan rSR
RG Dan Wenger rFR
RT Sam Young SO

Sullivan is the only offensive lineman on the team that has more than one year of significant playing experience. He is also the only offensive lineman in the 5th year or true senior class. Willingham had two complete recruiting classes. He signed 4 offensive linemen and two of them have transferred. Right now, Florida is starting 3 offensive linemen that were recruited and signed by Zook. ND has one on campus that was recruited by Willingham. The backups to ND’s oline are all freshman and sophomores. They aren’t the backups because they are great players who have passed older ones; they are there because there is literally no one else to back them up.

Harvin wouldn't have any where to run, and Tebow wouldn't have any time to throw if the offensive line sucked.

When the move was made to hire a new coach, every Notre Dame fan knew that the third year of the new coach would be a complete struggle and rebuilding year because of the dearth of offensive and defensive lineman that Ty created. There would be no JUCO help to add some depth to these positions. We knew that in 2007 there would be a very young offensive line. Where we thought ND would struggle would be in the passing game because pass blocking is harder to pick up than run blocking. ND fans were right in that regard, but the one strength we thought we would have (run blocking) has been an absolute disaster. This area and struggle is 100% on Weis. Did I think it would be this bad? Hell no. Weis needs to correct things and correct them quickly.

So in a nutshell, like I said in another post, this year was a perfect storm of graduation, shitty depth, and young players playing at many key positions. Weis has been a phenomenal recruiter and an excellent coach. His first two years with ND and years in the NFL have proven that. His biggest roadblock to becoming a successful college football head coach is his own ego. Carroll got past that and has an empire in LA. Weis won’t build anything like that, but if he can swallow his ego and admit his short comings, he will be fine. He has started to do that with the hire of Corwin Brown. Ty never did that. His reputation was also as an offensive guru, but he failed to produce a decent offense in his three years. In that time, he also failed to address the dead weight on his coaching staff. If the team does not show significant improvement throughout this year and Weis fails to make any moves on the coaching staff, I will approach 2008 the same way I approached 2004 with Willingham. He gets that year to prove to me that he was right and I was wrong.

The majority of blame for this offense rests on Weis’s shoulders. But to not factor in the damage that Ty did to the depth chart is being very short sighted and lazy. Davie, for as awful as he was, left Ty with great talent on defense and along the offensive line. The same cannot be said for the Ty-Weis transition.

[PSUFAN]

Gosh darn...pretty nice work there.

Every once in a while, you lose a few games. I think ND will get it turned around. I'm impressed by Clausen. He showed poise, despite being under quite a bit of pressure this season. Opening your career against GT, PSU, and UM is a pretty tall order. I haven't seen him make any huge mistakes...I wish I could say the same about senior Anthony Morelli...

[King Crimson]

correct my memory (or lackthereof), but what happened to Cutcliffe?

[Killian]

correct my memory (or lackthereof), but what happened to Cutcliffe?

He had heart issues and resigned to take a year off from coaching. He is now the OC at Tennessee.

PSU,

I think Clausen will be fine as well. My only worry with him is getting gunshy because of the beating he has taken and will continue to take this year. Quinn took the same beating, but came back from it. He was also much bigger than Clausen and had a running game they could at least keep the defense honest with when they chose to (which wasn't often enough).

I expected QB struggles due to a new starter and new starters at WR. I did not expect the struggles to run the ball. That has been an absolute disaster.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Great points, Killian.

I expected QB struggles due to a new starter and new starters at WR. I did not expect the struggles to run the ball. That has been an absolute disaster.

You hit upon this one earlier as well. It's all coming down to our offensive line play.

You're right to point out the severe talent gap that was left at the end of Willingham's tenure, particularly on the offensive line. And while ND has had impressive front-line talent the past two years, there was a shocking lack of depth all the way around, and particularly on the offensive line. This year we're seeing the results of that.

Having said that, while it's reasonable to expect our offensive line to be struggling somewhat, it is not reasonable to expect them to struggle to this level. Right about now, a good high school defense would be giving our offensive line fits. There's simply no excuse for that.

That comes down to coaching, as well as the play of the individual players. Right now, every position should be up for grabs, at least on the offensive line. And if the play of this unit doesn't improve dramatically, Latina should be gone no later than the end of the season.

As for those clamoring for Weis' head on this board, and accusing ND of a double standard with respect to Weis and Willingham, they are way off-base, for several reasons. One, as you pointed out, is the fact that Weis has shown a willingness to dump assistants who don't cut it. What few here may know is that, after the end of Ty's second season, he had a "come to Jesus" meeting with White (one of the few things White has done right as athletic director). In that meeting, White specifically mentioned that Ty's job was not yet in jeopardy, but that there were several members of his staff who had not produced up to expectations, and Ty would be expected either to let them go or to suffer the consequences if he did not and ND did not improve dramatically the next season. Ty stuck with his guys, and paid for it with his job.

A second point to mention is that ND did not fire Ty at the first sign of trouble. I'm probably in the minority in this regard on this board, but I've never seen "fire the coach" as a panacea when your program is not living up to expectations. If/when a coach encounters adversity, I'd prefer that he get at least an opportunity to address it before he is let go. Show me a program that fires its coach at the first sign of trouble, and I'll show you a program that's stuck in neutral forever. Ty went 15-10 in his first two seasons at ND. Weis went 19-6 in his first two seasons at ND -- that's a two-game per year improvement, and it's not unreasonable to expect that that may have bought him a little more patience from ND's fans and administration. With respect to the buyout, I can assure you that it exists in Weis' contract as well. But the earliest point at which ND can exercise its rights under the buyout provision is the end of the third season, same as for Willingham. We're not there yet.

Not to come off like too much of a Pollyanna, but this situation can actually present an opportunity for ND's players and coaches. At this point, the season might as well be over. Forget records, forget wins and losses and forget your opponents. Your most important opponent right now is yourself. What can you do to get better, and to make the team better? If the team can concentrate on that right now, it could pay dividends over the long haul. I suspect that most ND teams in the recent past would have folded up the tent completely after a start like this. What ND does with the rest of the season will say a lot about Weis' coaching ability.

Next week I have a wedding to attend. The way I feel right now, I don't even want to bother trying to check in on the game between the ceremony and the reception. But I'm just enough of a sucker that I probably will. Being a ND fan is pretty brutal right about now. Better days are ahead for ND football, and probably pretty soon, at least when measured within the greater scheme of things. But it's tough going through this right now.

[T REX]

Great posts....both of you. I know you guys aren't where you want to be and (believe it or not), I really thought Weis was a better coach than what's on the field for ND.

I also hear what you are saying concerning the o-line and agree somewhat. Isn't the defense getting shredded though as well?

I guess that was my point....ND is failing in all three phases. That's not just the assistants. That's from the top on down.

As far as this year being a free pass, I don't get it......why should Weis get a free pass for any year????? You sound like the idiots that were defending Zook and blamed Zook's losses on Spurrier leaving the cupboard bare. Huh? Wtf? At least Weis has shown some success....but getting a pass....I don't know.....ND isn't even competitive on the field.

Terrible. I expected more accountability from the diehard domers that bleed gold. I hear a lot of people biting their tongues and am wondering WHY?????!!!!!

[Killian]

I wouldn't call it a free pass. I'll explain more later.

[Jimmy Medalions]

I don't think Weis is getting a pass. Admitting failure is a difficult thing for people to deal with. In this case, the media and ND nation failed to do one thing: accept Weis into the program with reasonable expectations.

Weis is a great coach and will work out long term, but the team's performance this year cuts against everything that the media and fans had expected. At what point do they start coming out with the admission that they were wrong - that winning at ND is hard to do and that Weis doesn't, in fact, walk on water. He is capable of failure just like the rest of us.

You are starting to see a slow groundswell of discontent and cynicism toward Weis, both from the fans and the media outlets. This will continue if/when ND continues to struggle, and you will see the alleged pass Weis has been given melt away.

Weis doesn't have a pass - he simply has doubters who won't open their mouth yet. Nobody in big boy football gets a pass.

[T REX]

I wouldn't call it a free pass. I'll explain more later.

Jones is blaming his transfer on a misleading Weis. You think Clausen is going to sit on the bench even if Jones out performs him in practice????? No way. The wheels are coming off....lets see how CHarlie handles everything.

[Jimmy Medalions]

[stating the obvious]In any breakup, there are three sides to every story. The two sides you do hear are bullshit.[/obvious]

[T REX]

Maybe....sour grapes? Maybe. But you have to handle stuff before it gets to that point.

[Killian]

I wouldn't call it a free pass. I'll explain more later.

Jones is blaming his transfer on a misleading Weis. You think Clausen is going to sit on the bench even if Jones out performs him in practice????? No way. The wheels are coming off....lets see how CHarlie handles everything.

Jones was told Clausen was the starter at the end of spring ball and almost bolted. When Clausen had his procedure, Jones was told he was the starter.

If anyone misled anyone, it was Jones. The guy just didn't show up for the bus. He was going to play the first series against UofM.

[Cicero]

Poor o-line play is unacceptable.


Sincerely,

FSU

[Danimal]

I am sick of hearing about Jones. IT RAN ACROSS THE SCREEN ALL FUCKING SATURDAY. Kids transfer all the time why the national hubbub over him? Dude started one lousy game. I'm sure it is news for ND-fan and I think it is bullshit if he left you hanging but I think the coverage of this is excessive. If Booty leaves USC or Pat White leaves WV, or if Quinn had left that would deserve major coverage. Jones? He left to a freaking MAC-team.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I also hear what you are saying concerning the o-line and agree somewhat. Isn't the defense getting shredded though as well?

I guess that was my point....ND is failing in all three phases.

The defense is giving up a lot of points, true. But that doesn't tell the entire story.

This may sound like excuse-making for the defense, but in this case, there's definitely a grain of truth here. The defensive play goes back to the offensive play.

You yourself posted the statistics earlier. We're not talking about a team that's moving the ball effectively but having trouble in the red zone. That can usually be fixed by a relatively minor adjustment, or sometimes, even a lucky break will do the trick. Right now, though, our offense is just completely inept. That impacts upon the defensive performance in two ways.

One way is that over the course of the game, we lose the field position battle because the offense can't move the ball. Our opponents have had a disproportionately high number of short fields to work with so far. That usually translates into a lot of points allowed. Just one (but far from the only) example: on ND's first play from scrimmage against Michigan, they had a trick formation set up with Clausen out on a wing, and Allen was supposed to take a direct snap from center. But then Sullivan (the fifth-year senior) sailed the ball way over Allen's head. ND recovered, but was backed up almost to its own goal line. We had to punt, Michigan got a short field and scored. That set the tone for the entire game.

There's another way in which the offense impacts the defense. I haven't seen or heard stats on this, but I suspect we're last, or nearly last, in the nation in time of possession, again due to the fact that we can't move the ball. That translates into our defense spending an awful lot of time on the field, and by the 4th quarter they're worn down. IIRC, both Georgia Tech and Penn State scored two 4th quarter TD's against us. Michigan did not, but that's because they had called off the dogs by that point.

As for special teams, with the exception of the punt return for a TD in the Penn State game, I haven't seen special teams killing us. In fact, Zibby nearly broke one against Penn State, going out of bounds at the Penn State 7, and we couldn't cash it in. That's inexcusable. If I had to select a team MVP at this point, my vote would go to Geoff Price, our punter. But that may be more a reflection on the team than anything else. Anytime a punter not named Ray Guy winds up as his team's MVP, he plays on a very shitty team.

[Shine]

Nobody in big boy football gets a pass.

Which is why Weis IS getting a pass. Put the NBC contract aside and the fact remains, Notre Dame is NOT a college football elite team anymore and they haven't been for a long time. They have as much history and tradition as any program in the country but they simply haven't been able to compete with the uber-elite teams in a long time. The sooner the national media and ND fanbase come to grips with the fact that a 7-4/8-3 season is pretty freaking good for the Domers the better. The days of competing for a national championship are over. The TV contract and national fanbase may still generate future undeserved BCS games but they'll just get stomped once there, again.

I'm sure I'll be labeled a hater but the truth hurts, ND is no longer an elite level program strictly from an on-field perspective.

[Killian]

The sooner the national media and ND fanbase come to grips with the fact that a 7-4/8-3 season is pretty freaking good for the Domers the better. The days of competing for a national championship are over.

Right. Just like they were over in the Kuharic and Faust days. Let's not go off the deep end here. ND may have fallen, but they're not Northwestern. A 7-4/8-3 season isn't "pretty freaking good" for Notre Dame on a year in and year out basis. This year, it would be an unbelievable season.

I'm sure I'll be labeled a hater but the truth hurts, ND is no longer an elite level program strictly from an on-field perspective.

As of this moment, not a single person can argue with you.

[Shine]

The sooner the national media and ND fanbase come to grips with the fact that a 7-4/8-3 season is pretty freaking good for the Domers the better. The days of competing for a national championship are over.

Right. Just like they were over in the Kuharic and Faust days. Let's not go off the deep end here. ND may have fallen, but they're not Northwestern. A 7-4/8-3 season isn't "pretty freaking good" for Notre Dame on a year in and year out basis. This year, it would be an unbelievable season.

Apples to hand grenades. The world has moved on my friend and competing at a high level in the 2000's is a different beast. ND will never be able to consistently get the type of talent that is required to compete with the true big boys of the CFB universe. They may have a "blip on the radar" season once every 6-7 years where they can put a 10-2 record on the books but the majority of the time they'll be relegated to second tier status. As a fan I understand and appreciate your reluctance to accept this fact but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. ND will not win another national title in football.

[Killian]

The sooner the national media and ND fanbase come to grips with the fact that a 7-4/8-3 season is pretty freaking good for the Domers the better. The days of competing for a national championship are over.

Right. Just like they were over in the Kuharic and Faust days. Let's not go off the deep end here. ND may have fallen, but they're not Northwestern. A 7-4/8-3 season isn't "pretty freaking good" for Notre Dame on a year in and year out basis. This year, it would be an unbelievable season.

Apples to hand grenades. The world has moved on my friend and competing at a high level in the 2000's is a different beast. ND will never be able to consistently get the type of talent that is required to compete with the true big boys of the CFB universe. They may have a "blip on the radar" season once every 6-7 years where they can put a 10-2 record on the books but the majority of the time they'll be relegated to second tier status. As a fan I understand and appreciate your reluctance to accept this fact but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. ND will not win another national title in football.

No, it's not apples to hand grenades. If Weis keeps this recruiting class together, it will be the first time since the late 80's/early 90's that ND has had 3 consecutive top 10 recruiting classes. They suck ass this year, there is no doubt. But to say that they will not win another title in football is akin to me saying that Indiana won't win another title in basketball, and they will be relegated to second tier status.

Shine, I respect your opinion, but you are way off base on this one. Especially with regards to the talent that Weis is bringing in.

[Shine]

Sorry but if the talent they had now TRULY reflected 2 straight top 10 national classes youth wouldn't be an excuse for ranking dead last in nearly every statistical offensive category. For all the eloquence you Domers have laid out in this thread the bottom line is you're blaming youth for the poor results. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either they have talent to compete or they don't. Simple vision from the first 3 games tells you they don't.

The reason I can say with certainty that ND won't win another title is because the "system" CFB uses means ND can never lose more than 1 regular season game and still have a shot. As long as they continue to play 3-4 B10 teams, another 2-3 BCS conf. team games and USC they won't be able to do that. Again a 9-2 blip season will "earn" them a BCS bowl every now and again but that's the ceiling for the program now.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Killian]

Sorry but if the talent they had now TRULY reflected 2 straight top 10 national classes youth wouldn't be an excuse for ranking dead last in nearly every statistical offensive category. For all the eloquence you Domers have laid out in this thread the bottom line is you're blaming youth for the poor results. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either they have talent to compete or they don't. Simple vision from the first 3 games tells you they don't.

The reason I can say with certainty that ND won't win another title is because the "system" CFB uses means ND can never lose more than 1 regular season game and still have a shot. As long as they continue to play 3-4 B10 teams, another 2-3 BCS conf. team games and USC they won't be able to do that. Again a 9-2 blip season will "earn" them a BCS bowl every now and again but that's the ceiling for the program now.

Don't shoot the messenger.

I didn't blame youth on their struggles, I blamed a lack of upper class talent and leadership. Good football teams are always driven by upperclass leadership and have super underclassmen starting or getting time here and there. ND is starting 5 (likely 6 this week) players who are soph's or younger on offense, and they are starting 2 on defense. That number wouldn't have as much of an effect if they weren't olineman, QB and RB. The talent is there, and more is on the way. What they do lack is experience and the only way to get that is to take their lumps.

As to your second point, you can thank Kevin White for dumbing down the schedule and only keeping UofM and USC on the schedule. Throw in Purdue and Michigan State, and those are going to be the 4 "big games" a year, with an occasional heavy weight (Oklahoma, etc.) sprinkled in. But that game will replace one of the MSU or Purdue games, keeping the total at 4 and then 8 garbage teams.

The system is set up for all teams so that if they lose more than one game they are screwed. Going forward, White is setting it up so that ND will be playing games against teams that will be at a talent disadvantage when they play ND, outside of USC, Oklahoma and possibly Michigan.

[T REX]

I didn't blame youth on their struggles, I blamed a lack of upper class talent and leadership.

Huh?

[Killian]

I didn't blame youth on their struggles, I blamed a lack of upper class talent and leadership.

Huh?

Youth is always going to fuck up. When there is talent and upper class leadership, those fuck ups aren't as magnified. Youth shouldn't be counted on to lead a team, they should be role players.

[TheJON]

Agreed. Iowa is having those same issues with youth. Our WR's feature 3 freshmen in the Top 4 and the other is a junior. Our offensive line does not have 1 senior on the 2-deeps. Our TE's are juniors and our QB is a first year starting SO. The only seniors that will even get any PT this year on offense are our 2 RB's and our FB. Everyone else is an underclassman. Experience tends to beat talent.

[TheChief]

Notre Dame sucks ass now, in every phase of the game and I mean every phase from coaching to playing. This is nothing out of the norm in the natural cycle of teams throughout college football.

FSU played for the national title in 98, 99, and 00. Did any of you think that we would fall so far in just six years????????????????????? Do any of you think that FSU will never have another national title??????????????????????????
Miami???????????????????????????
Nebraska????????????????????????????

I don't fucking like ND and I'm happy to see them losing, but some people need a reality check. They will be back eventually. Just have fun riding the "ND sucks" wave while it lasts.

[Jimmy Medalions]

Or USC in the early, mid and late 90s.

[Shine]

I didn't blame youth on their struggles,

We knew that in 2007 there would be a very young offensive line.

So in a nutshell, like I said in another post, this year was a perfect storm of graduation, shitty depth, and young players playing at many key positions.

Looks like blaming youth, at least to an extent, to me.

[Shine]

I don't fucking like ND and I'm happy to see them losing, but some people need a reality check. They will be back eventually. Just have fun riding the "ND sucks" wave while it lasts.

Who says they'll be back?? If we rely on history for predicting future success I'll be on the lookout for the revival of Army football too. History is littered with programs that were once great and aren't anymore. Like I told Killian, the world has moved on and building an elite program in the 2000's is a totally different animal than it was even a decade ago. Notre Dame has self-imposed handcuffs on their program nobody else does which is THE key reason they'll be relegated to second tier status moving forward.

And you might want to do something about Skeletor Bowden before the already uphill battle you face in catching up to UF gets any steeper.

[Jimmy Medalions]

Notre Dame has self-imposed handcuffs on their program nobody else does which is THE key reason they'll be relegated to second tier status moving forward.

This wins as the most ignorant post of the week so far. Congratulations, idiot - only a cowering loser who has accepted failure (sup, IU football) would buy into bullshit like this.

Exhibit A - USC.

The University of Southern California has, since the early 1990s, elevated exponentially in terms of academics. Entrance qualifications are now in the elite category. So.......when USC was doing all that sucking back when grades were less important, how on earth are they winning all these games now that they are important.

How? Because USC gave the athletic department the latitude to bring in the necessary coaches and players to create a winner. After getting sick of sucking, the university made a business decision and it has paid dividends like no other. You don't think Notre Dame will reach the same choking point? Let me show you how it goes down:

AD: Charlie, we fucking suck
CW: You're right, and if you can get me real players we will stop sucking
AD: You are right, I'm going to bitch to the president

AD: President, we fucking suck and the football program is a huge part of this university's identity
PR: Yes, but we are a university with standards
AD: Fuck standards, do you want to keep sucking or go back to being an elite program to maintain our brand name
PR: Welllll, I um, need to consult with the trustees
AD: I am pretty sure they'll tell you they're sick of sucking, and would rather win
PR: Yes but we can't have unsavory people here at Notre Dame
AD: Do you want to keep sucking or manage the risk and win
PR: Let me, um, check with the trustees

That's how it goes down. That's how it went down at USC when academic standards were starting to get in the way. Big boy football is a business before anything else, and sooner or later programs like Notre Dame recognize that the brand name is directly tied to the athletic programs.

If you think Notre Dame will be relegated to the 2nd tier from here on out, you are a dumbfuck.

[Killian]

Great posts....both of you. I know you guys aren't where you want to be and (believe it or not), I really thought Weis was a better coach than what's on the field for ND.

I also hear what you are saying concerning the o-line and agree somewhat. Isn't the defense getting shredded though as well?

I guess that was my point....ND is failing in all three phases. That's not just the assistants. That's from the top on down.

As far as this year being a free pass, I don't get it......why should Weis get a free pass for any year????? You sound like the idiots that were defending Zook and blamed Zook's losses on Spurrier leaving the cupboard bare. Huh? Wtf? At least Weis has shown some success....but getting a pass....I don't know.....ND isn't even competitive on the field.

Terrible. I expected more accountability from the diehard domers that bleed gold. I hear a lot of people biting their tongues and am wondering WHY?????!!!!!

I believe Weis is an excellent coach and teacher. Right now, there is a disconnect and it starts with the offensive line. As long as the offensive line is playing the way it is, ND could be trotting out Barry Sanders, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice and Randy Moss and the offense would still look the same it is now. Given time, any QB and RB can pick apart a defense. Case in point, when Willingham took over he had 5 starters that went on to play in the NFL. During that year, there were games that Carlyle Holiday looked like an excellent QB. Ryan Grant also ran for 1,000 yards. Take those away, Holiday looks like garbage, Grant sucks and the offense looks like it's stuck in neutral.

As for the defense, as Terry pointed out, they have been on the field and have not been given a break all year. This too falls on Weis's shoulders. For the past two years, ND's defense blew so Weis would take the ball if he won the toss and try to score first to give his defense some confidence and play to his teams strengths. Because of his arrogance, he has taken the ball all three times this year and has put the defense in poor positions to start the game. The one time where the offense actually moved the ball, ND pinned PSU back deep for their first series and the defense responded with a pick for a TD. ND's defense has been playing better, but they have had zero help from the offense.

Weis does not get a free pass. As Jimmy pointed out, no coach gets a free pass. However, when looking at the team when Weis was hired every ND fan knew that no matter what happened the first two years, the third year was going to be very tough. The first two years would be absolutely critical for Weis because if he struggled in those two years and then had the year he is having now, ND would almost be forced to act.

Every coach gets a window to come in and prove how he will be as a coach. Up until the beginning of this season, Weis had excelled in every aspect as a head coach. He had made two consecutive BCS games, had a 10 win season, was recruiting extreemly well, his players were staying out of trouble, and he was graduating his kids. This year was going to be tough, but obviously ND fans didn't think it was going to be this bad.

When Willingham was hired, after the first year I bought into the hype hook, line and sinker. I ignored the problems that were very apparent during that season, and had blinders on going into '03. Quickly those were ripped off, and many ND fans (including myself) had to take a look at the harsh reality of a poorly coached football team. The changes that needed to be made were obvious, and Ty was given a chance to make them. He chose not to make them. At that time, I said to myself and anyone that listened that the up coming year ('04) was make or break for Ty because he tied his fate to the coaching ability of his assistants. As the season went on, it was time to make a change.

Weis is in a similar situation. He was in one last year and made the move to fire Vaas and Minter and replaced them with Powlus and Brown. The offensive line needs to show marked improvement as the year goes on to warrant John Latina keeping his job. That improvement has to start this week or next, because I won't consider anything against the last 4 teams as improvement. If improvement is not shown, Weis will be forced to make a move. If he doesn't, 2008 will be for him what Ty's 2004 season was; make or break.

Had Ty made a move for a new OC and another change or two, I would have been all for him keeping his job heading into 2005. When coaching changes are made, it's at least a sign to me that the head coach knows there is an issue, acknowledges the issue, and is doing something to correct it. Davie bought himself more time by firing Jim Colletto and bringing in Kevin Rodgers, Weis did it by bringing in Minter, Ty failed to do it because he was too loyal to Diedrick and Baer.

There is too much young talent on this oline to be this bad. Weis will need to correct the situation this year, in the off season, or face a make or break year in 2008 to prove everyone wrong.

[Killian]

Looks like blaming youth, at least to an extent, to me.

Do you want to quote my other post on the youth issue, or just completely ignore that one?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Notre Dame has self-imposed handcuffs on their program nobody else does which is THE key reason they'll be relegated to second tier status moving forward.

This wins as the most ignorant post of the week so far. Congratulations, idiot - only a cowering loser who has accepted failure (sup, IU football) would buy into bullshit like this.

Exhibit A - USC.

The University of Southern California has, since the early 1990s, elevated exponentially in terms of academics. Entrance qualifications are now in the elite category. So.......when USC was doing all that sucking back when grades were less important, how on earth are they winning all these games now that they are important.

How? Because USC gave the athletic department the latitude to bring in the necessary coaches and players to create a winner. After getting sick of sucking, the university made a business decision and it has paid dividends like no other. You don't think Notre Dame will reach the same choking point? Let me show you how it goes down:

AD: Charlie, we fucking suck
CW: You're right, and if you can get me real players we will stop sucking
AD: You are right, I'm going to bitch to the president

AD: President, we fucking suck and the football program is a huge part of this university's identity
PR: Yes, but we are a university with standards
AD: Fuck standards, do you want to keep sucking or go back to being an elite program to maintain our brand name
PR: Welllll, I um, need to consult with the trustees
AD: I am pretty sure they'll tell you they're sick of sucking, and would rather win
PR: Yes but we can't have unsavory people here at Notre Dame
AD: Do you want to keep sucking or manage the risk and win
PR: Let me, um, check with the trustees

That's how it goes down. That's how it went down at USC when academic standards were starting to get in the way. Big boy football is a business before anything else, and sooner or later programs like Notre Dame recognize that the brand name is directly tied to the athletic programs.

If you think Notre Dame will be relegated to the 2nd tier from here on out, you are a dumbfuck.

Further on the point of academics, from experience I can say that anyone who thinks the admission standards for football players are the same as for non-athletes at ND is either incredibly naive, an unparalleled homer, or some combination of the two. For that matter, the admission standards among all non-athletes aren't even the same. 25% of each class being reserved for legacies -- a policy I hated as a high school senior sweating out the admissions process, but love now that I'm an alum with two kids who might want to attend ND sometime in the future -- out front told me so.

That having been said, football players at ND are expected to attend class, and to graduate. I think that's a good idea, and I don't want to see that change. For that reason, I don't want to see the floodgates opened for admissions/academics. As a sidenote, I'd point out that a major reason -- not the only one, but a very important one -- why Bob Davie didn't succeed at ND was that he never quite got the simple fact that ND isn't your run-of-the-mill football factory, and the overwhelming majority of ND's fanbase prefers it to remain that way.

I've stated for quite some time that I favor a middle ground approach, in which the coach would be able to advocate for up to three kids per year who didn't make the cut academically, but were potential difference makers. And a significant part of the coach's evaluation should turn on how those kids pan out, both on and off the field. It's not exactly as though there is no precedent for this sort of thing at ND. Tony Rice, Chris Zorich and Rocket Ismail were all players who were a bit questionable academically, but they were all quality people and players who ultimately did ND proud.

As for other "self-imposed handcuffs" on ND, the most commonly mentioned one is the fact that ND is an independent, but I don't see that as a handcuff. Being independent has allowed ND to play a national schedule and have a national TV contract. The only drawback is the absence of opportunity for an automatic BCS bid, but the Top 8 rule is relatively fair compensation for that. And one of the BCS' backdoor rules, i.e., that no conference can obtain more than one at-large BCS bid in a given year, actually works to ND's advantage under the current system.

[Danimal]

Notre Dame has self-imposed handcuffs on their program nobody else does which is THE key reason they'll be relegated to second tier status moving forward.

This wins as the most ignorant post of the week so far. Congratulations, idiot - only a cowering loser who has accepted failure (sup, IU football) would buy into bullshit like this.

Exhibit A - USC.

The University of Southern California has, since the early 1990s, elevated exponentially in terms of academics. Entrance qualifications are now in the elite category. So.......when USC was doing all that sucking back when grades were less important, how on earth are they winning all these games now that they are important.

How? Because USC gave the athletic department the latitude to bring in the necessary coaches and players to create a winner. After getting sick of sucking, the university made a business decision and it has paid dividends like no other. You don't think Notre Dame will reach the same choking point? Let me show you how it goes down:

AD: Charlie, we fucking suck
CW: You're right, and if you can get me real players we will stop sucking
AD: You are right, I'm going to bitch to the president

AD: President, we fucking suck and the football program is a huge part of this university's identity
PR: Yes, but we are a university with standards
AD: Fuck standards, do you want to keep sucking or go back to being an elite program to maintain our brand name
PR: Welllll, I um, need to consult with the trustees
AD: I am pretty sure they'll tell you they're sick of sucking, and would rather win
PR: Yes but we can't have unsavory people here at Notre Dame
AD: Do you want to keep sucking or manage the risk and win
PR: Let me, um, check with the trustees

That's how it goes down. That's how it went down at USC when academic standards were starting to get in the way. Big boy football is a business before anything else, and sooner or later programs like Notre Dame recognize that the brand name is directly tied to the athletic programs.

If you think Notre Dame will be relegated to the 2nd tier from here on out, you are a dumbfuck.

Further on the point of academics, from experience I can say that anyone who thinks the admission standards for football players are the same as for non-athletes at ND is either incredibly naive, an unparalleled homer, or some combination of the two. For that matter, the admission standards among all non-athletes aren't even the same. 25% of each class being reserved for legacies -- a policy I hated as a high school senior sweating out the admissions process, but love now that I'm an alum with two kids who might want to attend ND sometime in the future -- out front told me so.

That having been said, football players at ND are expected to attend class, and to graduate. I think that's a good idea, and I don't want to see that change. For that reason, I don't want to see the floodgates opened for admissions/academics. As a sidenote, I'd point out that a major reason -- not the only one, but a very important one -- why Bob Davie didn't succeed at ND was that he never quite got the simple fact that ND isn't your run-of-the-mill football factory, and the overwhelming majority of ND's fanbase prefers it to remain that way.

I've stated for quite some time that I favor a middle ground approach, in which the coach would be able to advocate for up to three kids per year who didn't make the cut academically, but were potential difference makers. And a significant part of the coach's evaluation should turn on how those kids pan out, both on and off the field. It's not exactly as though there is no precedent for this sort of thing at ND. Tony Rice, Chris Zorich and Rocket Ismail were all players who were a bit questionable academically, but they were all quality people and players who ultimately did ND proud.

As for other "self-imposed handcuffs" on ND, the most commonly mentioned one is the fact that ND is an independent, but I don't see that as a handcuff. Being independent has allowed ND to play a national schedule and have a national TV contract. The only drawback is the absence of opportunity for an automatic BCS bid, but the Top 8 rule is relatively fair compensation for that. And one of the BCS' backdoor rules, i.e., that no conference can obtain more than one at-large BCS bid in a given year, actually works to ND's advantage under the current system.

Nice post. Ya the academic standards are higher and they do miss-out on some kids. But the old Holtz line about being so handcuffed by academics is crap. So what was the problem at South Carolina Lou? ND will still spark plenty of interest from recruits because they are ND, a very special entity. Being independent does nothing but help ND. They have a killer tv-deal and as has been shown have no problem getting into nice bowls. One thing I think ND should change though is the redshirt policy. I just don't see how giving a kid an extra year to work on his bachelor's is any threat to ND's academic legitimacy. Football does take a significant part of the athlete's time, why shouldn't they get another year? Guys who are marginal academically or athletically would have a better chance of success.

[Shine]

Looks like blaming youth, at least to an extent, to me.

Do you want to quote my other post on the youth issue, or just completely ignore that one?

I went strictly to the original post because that was your chance to fully lay out your rationale behind why the ND start isn't a call for alarm. As a topic starter it's on you to lay out your case and in doing that you used youth as an excuse.

The main point is, I don't care how young ND is there is no, repeat NO, excuse for being as bad as they've been. Losing 3 games is one thing, being humiliated in all of them and scoring as many offensive TD's as me is another.

[Shine]

This wins as the most ignorant post of the week so far. Congratulations, idiot - only a cowering loser who has accepted failure (sup, IU football) would buy into bullshit like this.

It's up for debate if I had the lead in the clubhouse with my post, but even if I did you went ahead and snatched the award back into your clutches with your moronic diatribe. Yeah Meds, U$C is the only school that compromised their overall academic criteria for athletes. Yep, all those Dook basketball players would have been accepted if they couldn't play hoops. That is only 1 of about 400+ examples I could cite. Of course schools have lowered academic standards for athletes you quarter wit (after that last post I think half wit would be far too kind).

Notre Dame simply hasn't lowered their bar to the same extent as the vast majority of programs throughout the country. And I applaud them for it. As much as I dislike ND from an athletic standpoint I respect the hell out of the university as a whole. They currently don't have the bar lowered as much as most do and even if they do moving forward go ahead and lower it a bit more IMO they will NEVER lower it to the degree most do. It may be commonplace for U$C to have issues with NCAA regulations but that's a path I'd be shocked to see ND ever go down.

Further, the self imposed handcuffs I mentioned are more far reaching than simply academics. Not surprising that you instantly latched onto that one single point like a U$C player latching onto a bag of cash (sup, Reggie).

As for IU football they've accepted losing about as much as you've accepted heterosexuality. They hired a coach with more dignity and class than the entire U$C program to build them a winning program. Words can't express how sad it is what happened but despite the tragic loss Coach Hep laid the foundation for IU to regain their competitive place in CFB. The construction taking place currently at Memorial Stadium is further testament to the greatness of that man.

[Killian]

Looks like blaming youth, at least to an extent, to me.

Do you want to quote my other post on the youth issue, or just completely ignore that one?

I went strictly to the original post because that was your chance to fully lay out your rationale behind why the ND start isn't a call for alarm. As a topic starter it's on you to lay out your case and in doing that you used youth as an excuse.

The main point is, I don't care how young ND is there is no, repeat NO, excuse for being as bad as they've been. Losing 3 games is one thing, being humiliated in all of them and scoring as many offensive TD's as me is another.

Two points. First, I never said that this start was not cause for alarm. In fact, if you read my entire first post on the matter, I bring the finger directly back to Weis. Three of his starters on the Oline are Juniors or better, and they are playing like a bag of ass. Second, I used youth as part of my argument, with the main crux being a lack of upperclass talent and leadership is to blame for some of the on field struggles. Youth plays a part in the struggles. As someone on ND Nation put it, it is Ty's fault we are losing, it's Weis's fault we are getting embarassed.

Is it really Ty's fault? No. But he did no favors to whomever the next coach would have been.

[Jimmy Medalions]

Homosmack and moral rationalization. Thanks for the inspiring and well thought-out take there Shine. Way to take a page from m2ool with the moral victory.

USC is one of many schools that has chosen to ease standards for certain athletes. The sign out front should have told you, but that is generally a good practice if you plan to be a winning program. With that practice comes the need for an effective coaching staff that can get these kids to move in the right direction. Those with a wonderlic score higher than six (sup Vince Young) get it - thanks for helping us evaluate you accordingly.

Notre Dame will eventually concede to this approach to some degree, and it's still entirely laughable that you think Notre Dame will be a second tier program in the future. They are Notre Dame and will always get their share of players, but some bending of the policies will help them get more players and win more games.

In any event, thanks for showing up and looking like an idiot. A board needs its m2ools.

[T REX]

Speaking of USC....Will Hill to UF!!!!!

We'll take him.

[SoCalTrjn]

Speaking of USC....Will Hill to UF!!!!!

We'll take him.

Dude never even visited USC, you knew after his trip to Gainesville this weekend and with a trip to Los Angeles scheduled for 2 weeks from now, Meyer was not going to allow Hill to go to USC and had his whole staff on the full court press. It worked with Will Hill, it didnt work with Ronald Johnson last year. Ro Jo said he was going to have to discuss what school he would go to with his mom after his visit to LA. Meyer took the Fla plane and was at Ro Jos house talking to his mom before Johnsons commercial flight got him home.

What will be interesting is if Hill exercises his right to still visit USC in 2 weeks and then if USC can sway him away from Meyer