What a cluster fuck Tillmans death was

[Mister Bushice]

Blind soldiers shooting at unidentified targets at odds with their training, three pinpoint shots to his head, evidence destroyed, witnesses lawyered up.

"The Army - be all you can be"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061109/ap_ ... _a_warrior

[Atomic Punk]

I think I read that article 3 or 4 months ago. I guess they thought the post-Demontard election that we'd give a shit about the "new" agenda. (roll)

[Mister Bushice]

who's calling any shots about what happened there? That is just the point. No one is forthcoming about it.

and I don't imagine the people who destroyed his clothing AFTER the fire fight, or the ones who covered up the fact it was a death by friendly fire for a whole month were exactly under attack.

[Trollfessor]

The "Do you know who I am?" tactic failed once again.

"Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!"

[ChargerMike]

Pretty easy to sit back and call the shots from your comfy chair. Try doing it for real someday and you'll find it ain't so fucking easy.

Ditto, from those of us involved with the recovery from Katrina and Rita.

...ditto, those of us who went through the Northridge Earthquake!

[PSUFAN]

Tillman served his country admirably. He is a hero. It's a shame that they mislead everyone about the manner of his death, though...a real shame. If I were a member of the Tillman family, I'd be pretty fucking displeased...and they are.

[Cuda]

You probably think John McCain was a fucking hero too for being shot down on his first fucking mission.

In the private sector, they call that "incompetent"

[Goober McTuber]

Pretty easy to sit back and call the shots from your comfy chair. Try doing it for real someday and you'll find it ain't so fucking easy.

Ditto, from those of us involved with the recovery from Katrina and Rita.

...ditto, those of us who went through the Northridge Earthquake!

Ditto from those of us who nailed Blondiebabe at a trollstop.

Sincerely,

MartyredPerk

[PSUFAN]

You probably think John McCain was a fucking hero too for being shot down on his first fucking mission.

In the private sector, they call that "incompetent"

Pat Tillman gives up a big time pro sports contract, and goes to serve his country.

Cuda gets fired from his job and accepts government handouts for 6 months.

I think we're done here.

[Uncle Fester]

You probably think John McCain was a fucking hero too for being shot down on his first fucking mission.

In the private sector, they call that "incompetent"

I don't know whether McCain fits the definition of a "fucking hero."

But as someone who often disagrees with McCain's politics, I don't understand why anyone feels the need to denigrate the guy based on his war record. Sheesh.

Prisoner of war

On October 26, 1967, McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile, landing in Truc Bach Lake. McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five-and-a-half years, mostly in the infamous Hanoi Hilton. He broke both arms and a leg after ejecting from his plane. After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around him and stripped him of his clothing. He was then tortured by Vietnamese soldiers, who bayonetted him in his left foot and groin. His shoulder was crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.

Once McCain arrived at the Hanoi Hilton, he was placed in a cell and interrogated daily. When McCain refused to provide any information to his captors, he was beaten until he lost consciousness.[2]

When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), in charge of all US forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to go home, in an effort to embarrass the American military. Senior POWs had ordered there would be no return home unless all POWs were freed, and McCain, as did most POWs, followed orders and turned down the repatriation[citation needed].

McCain signed an anti-American propaganda message which was written in Vietnamese, but only as a result of torture (to this day, he cannot raise his arms above his head, due to his shoulders being broken by severe beatings). It is that period during his capture that he most regrets. After McCain signed the statement, the Vietnamese decided they could not use it. They tried to force him to sign a second statement. This time, he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.[2]

He was released from captivity in 1973. McCain was reinstated to flight status and became Commanding Officer of VA-174 Hellrazors, the East Coast A-7 Corsair II Navy training squadron. He then became the Navy's liaison to the Senate. He retired from the Navy in 1981 as a captain. On the same day, he watched his father being buried next to his grandfather in Arlington National Cemetery. During his military career, he received a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, the Legion of Merit, the Purple Heart, and a Distinguished Flying Cross.

McCain is one of only three Vietnam veterans currently serving in the US Senate, the others being fellow Republican Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, and Democrat John Kerry of Massachusetts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_mccain

[Cuda]

You make no sense at all, PUS... as usualm

Tillman's death was just unlucky- not herioc

[Uncle Fester]

Pat Tillman gives up a big time pro sports contract and goes to serve his country.

Sounds a bit more than "unlucky" to me.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Ditto, from those of us involved with the recovery from Katrina and Rita.

...ditto, those of us who went through the Northridge Earthquake!

Ditto from those of us who nailed Blondiebabe at a trollstop.

Sincerely,

MartyredPerk

And yet, they spit on me when I came home.

POW/MIGY*

* Prisoner Of Whore/Missing In Gutted Yak

[BSmack]

And yet, they spit on me when I came home.

POW/MIGY*

* Prisoner Of Whore/Missing In Gutted Yak

This needs to be racked.

[Goober McTuber]

...ditto, those of us who went through the Northridge Earthquake!

Ditto from those of us who nailed Blondiebabe at a trollstop.

Sincerely,

MartyredPerk

And yet, they spit on me when I came home.

They were just trying to wash you up.

[PSUFAN]

Tillman's death was just unlucky- not herioc

Listen, idiot. I wasn't calling Tillman a hero because of his death. The man was a hero the moment he decided to give up his sports contract in order to serve his country. That's not a decision that many folks would make.

Of course his death was not heroic. The only way it could be seen as heroic is if...the actual manner of death is concealed. Any bells ringing yet?

As for some of the recent public revelations...they tried to administer CPR to his cold, half-headless corpse? What the fuck is that?

[Mister Bushice]

Blind soldiers...three pinpoint shots to his head,

Couldn't have been that blind.

That's the whole point. They all claimed they could not see clearly, one even begging off on a lasik surgery a couple weeks prior. Yet, he was hit with pinpoint accuracy 3 times, in the forehead.

another oddity:

"Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" the NFL star shouted, again and again.

If they heard Tillman saying this and both Tillman and the AMF soldier were still killed.....????

If it was my family member, I'd be asking serious questions too.

[smackaholic]

who says the shots to his dome were pin point? I thought he was hit by machine gun fire? If he was hit by three and missed by a few hundred, there was nothing pin point about it.

This whole fukking thing is being kept alive by the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd. They want us to believe Tillman was silenced for some fukking reason.

You won your fukking election, already. Let it rest.

As for those involved being lawyered up, given the currenbt atmosphere of combat troops being thrown under the bus for doing their jobs, you'd be an idiot to not get a lawyer.

[Mister Bushice]

who says the shots to his dome were pin point? I thought he was hit by machine gun fire? If he was hit by three and missed by a few hundred, there was nothing pin point about it.

Three shots all to one side of his head. Not bad for peopel who couldn't see anything

You won your fukking election, already. Let it rest.

I didn't run.

As for those involved being lawyered up, given the currenbt atmosphere of combat troops being thrown under the bus for doing their jobs, you'd be an idiot to not get a lawyer.

Not so much a conspiracy, just a complete fuck up/cover up by the military, and a slap on the wrist to a few of those involved. Family members perhaps think their sons life is worth a little more than a pay reduction and a few reprimands.

If they heard Tillman saying this and both Tillman and the AMF soldier were still killed.....????

Obviously they didn't hear him nor would I expect that they would have.

Then where did that quote come from? It is pretty specific.

[bray2]

War, ..................such a messy thing!!!!!!!

The man was a hero, a real man. There is not a man on this board that should question him, his life, or his death.

I'm so tired of the hand wringing pussies that never wore a uniform questioning the integrity of a man who put his life on the line. I'm not just talking about Tillman, I'm talking about all of them.

Past, present and future.

If you do not agree with me, then go fuck yourself.

Have a nice Veterans day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your freedom of expression is protected.

[PSUFAN]

I have to guess that you rarely hear someone questioning the integrity of the servicepeople who put their life on the line.

I constantly hear people expressing displeasure with our foreign policy, which is a different thing altogether.

[bray2]

Rarely?????

This thread is riddled with idiots debating hero or no hero. The fact that he put on the uniform makes him a hero, period.

I don't care if one is a Navy Seal or a cook, they signed the dotted line, they gave a portion of their life to defend us.

Rarely?

I heard a prior Presidential Candidate last week, tell me our service men and women were uneducated hacks. He was just joking though right?

[warren]

War, ..................such a messy thing!!!!!!!

The man was a hero, a real man. There is not a man on this board that should question him, his life, or his death.

I'm so tired of the hand wringing pussies that never wore a uniform questioning the integrity of a man who put his life on the line. I'm not just talking about Tillman, I'm talking about all of them.

Past, present and future.

If you do not agree with me, then go fuck yourself.

Have a nice Veterans day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your freedom of expression is protected.

This get's so RACKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best thing I've read on here in, I don't know, maybe ever.

[Smackie Chan]

The fact that he put on the uniform makes him a hero, period.

No, it doesn't. To believe what you stated is to cheapen those who truly are heroes. A hero is someone who performs an act of heroism. Getting dressed doesn't qualify. I'm an honorably discharged veteran, and put on the uniform many times. But I am certainly no hero, nor are most of those with whom I worked while serving. I never put my life on the line, even though I put my name on the one that was dotted. I never saved the life of another, or put myself in harm's way. I'd like to think that had I been thrust into a position that afforded an opportunity to perform heroically, I would have done so. But simply being in a position where there is the potential for that to happen doesn't qualify one for hero status. Read the citations of those who have been awarded the Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, or other commendation of valor, and see if you still agree that simply putting on a uniform puts one in the same league as those true heroes. Even the Purple Heart is not necessarily a sign of heroism. Getting wounded is not in and of itself a heroic act.

Feel free to RACK all vets today in recognition of their willingness to serve. Just don't call all of them heroes, because not all of them were or are.

[bray2]

I would expect no less of you Chan. Go take another bong hit and talk to me about hero's.

[Smackie Chan]

talk to me about hero's.

If you are limiting your argument to Pat Tillman, I might be inclined to agree with you. Tillman was a hero, and perhaps because of the circumstances under which he enlisted, his donning of the uniform put him in a unique situation relative to most who do the same. But if you are making the blanket statement that everyone who serves is a hero, you're just retarded. And I can only assume you meant the latter in light of you're saying:

I'm not just talking about Tillman, I'm talking about all of them.

Past, present and future.

There are veterans who put their lives on the line who ultimately deserted and/or performed acts of cowardice rather than heroism. Are they still heroes in your eyes? Putting on the uniform is not the act that defines a hero. It's what one does afterward that matters.

[LTS TRN 2]

War, ..................such a messy thing!!!!!!!

The man was a hero, a real man. There is not a man on this board that should question him, his life, or his death.

I'm so tired of the hand wringing pussies that never wore a uniform questioning the integrity of a man who put his life on the line. I'm not just talking about Tillman, I'm talking about all of them.

Past, present and future.

If you do not agree with me, then go fuck yourself.

Have a nice Veterans day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your freedom of expression is protected.

You don't get it at all, do you?

The gross incompetence of the entire mission was obvious. Tillman's group had been forced to buy a goat from a local just to eat. These soldiers were obviously terrified, shooting at anything that moved. The only reason we're hearing about this particular disasterous fiasco is because Tillman was a minor celebrity. Just think how many other anonymous soldiers--and civilians--have been murdered by similarly incompetent and, really, useless U.S. soldiers stomping around in a bewildered state of fear.

Burning a friendly fire victim's uniform and armor is "normal," babs?

Once again, as usual, you are totally full of shit.

Who's to blame? Obviously the Chimp, Cheney, Rummy, Condi, et al--NONE OF WHOM EVER WORE A UNIFORM or fought in any battle. These criminals had no right whatsoever to invade anyone. After all, had the Afghanistan government declared war on America? Were any of the 9/11 attackers Afghans? Iraqis? Of course not. And make no mistake, neither Afghanistan nor Iraq can or will be conquered--especially by the pathetic likes of the U.S. army.

As for McCain, the horrific psychological damage incurred by this war-freak is obvious in his mealy-mouthed acquiesence to ANY military effort anywhere, as well as his insane call for MORE troops into Iraq. McCain, no joke, will push the button if he gets a chance.

THe WAKEY WAKING HAS JUST BEGUN!!!

[bray2]

Tired boiler plate semantics, just tired.

I don't give a shit if you hate Bush or Cheney or Rice or whatever. I don't give a shit if you hate Clinton or Gore or Michael Moore.


The troops deserve our admiration and support regardless of the mission. They have enlisted of their own free will.


You can come in here and spout your political bullshit, your hatred for a party, I don't care.

I do get it.

The fact is, they put it on the line while you come in here and question their integrity from the safety of your moms puter.

They protect your right to be ignorant. Let it bloom, you are protected.

So, question the war if you must, but I will not tolerate any debate as to the integrity of the troops that are serving, past , present, or future.

If you do, prepare for an endless thread until it is locked by a Moderator.

[Tinker to Evers to Chance]

Read the citations of those who have been awarded the Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, or other commendation of valor, and see if you still agree that simply putting on a uniform puts one in the same league as those true heroes.

I disagree. I have a Bronze Star, and I’m certainly no hero. A “V” device on an ARCOM or BSM might be more indicative, since those are related to a specific valorous act.

[Smackie Chan]

The troops deserve our admiration and support regardless of the mission. They have enlisted of their own free will.

Nowadays, that's probably true. But there were some airmen I knew in boot camp who enlisted because the alternative was incarceration. I don't think that's done anymore, but is putting on the uniform under these circumstances, or because one was drafted, an act of heroism? If you feel it is, you're easily impressed, and also giving short shrift to real heroes.

[Smackie Chan]

Read the citations of those who have been awarded the Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, or other commendation of valor, and see if you still agree that simply putting on a uniform puts one in the same league as those true heroes.

I disagree. I have a Bronze Star, and I’m certainly no hero. A “V” device on an ARCOM or BSM might be more indicative, since those are related to a specific valorous act.

While you may not have done anything you consider to be heroic, someone thought you at least acted meritoriously:

The {Bronze Star} medal is awarded to a member of the military who, while serving in or with the military of the United States after December 6, 1941, distinguished him- or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

Regardless, you did something more than merely don the uniform. RACK you for that.

[Dr_Phibes]

I disagree. [...] I’m certainly no hero.

I agree. RACK you.

[smackaholic]

[Who's to blame? Obviously the Chimp, Cheney, Rummy, Condi, et al--NONE OF WHOM EVER WORE A UNIFORM or fought in any battle. These criminals had no right whatsoever to invade anyone. After all, had the Afghanistan government declared war on America? Were any of the 9/11 attackers Afghans? Iraqis? Of course not. And make no mistake, neither Afghanistan nor Iraq can or will be conquered--especially by the pathetic likes of the U.S. army.

Rummy-fighter pilot during korean war
Chimp-fighter pilot during 'nam. Didn't see combat, but, he was in a position where he could have been called.

You really do suck with a vengeance.

[YD]

Read the citations of those who have been awarded the Medal of Honor, Silver Star, Bronze Star, or other commendation of valor, and see if you still agree that simply putting on a uniform puts one in the same league as those true heroes.

I disagree. I have a Bronze Star, and I’m certainly no hero. A “V” device on an ARCOM or BSM might be more indicative, since those are related to a specific valorous act.

rack tink and may he see many vets days in the comfort of a suburban house in somewheretown U&L with a hot wifey on his lap.

rack the vets and those serving now.

fukken saigon hookypoo

[Rooster]

"These soldiers were obviously terrified, shooting at anything that moved." --LTN

Not obviously or there would be no controversy about Tillman's death. Being terrified in the heat of a gunfight is normal, but that does not automatically mean one just sprays bullets willy-nilly at anything that moves. Friendly fire is a relatively common occurance in combat and having it happen in a situation where communication is spotty, location of friendly forces is unknown, and forces are advancing on your position just increases the possibility of shooting one of your own. In a perfect world every soldier would properly identify his target several hundred meters out, relay that identification to others in his unit, have it confirmed by them and then shooting would commence. Sadly, it rarely is that way in real life. Most combat situations (including the ones I have been involved in) happen in an instant, leaving little or no time to assess the situation beyond what was your understanding of the enviroment moments ago.

Tillman yelling out who he is doesn't mean anything either. Those of you who have fired an AR or CAR-15 can attest to the fact that it is incredibly loud-- loud to the point that your ears can ring for hours afterward. Multiply that by however many were firing in the direction of Tillman's squad and it is no surprise if they didn't hear a word he was saying.

While his death is certainly tragic, it was by no means purposeful, nor was the investigation necessarily bungled or intentionally submarined in order to protect others. More than likely it is what most every combat veteren will agree firefights are: Chaotic.

Rooster

[bray2]

Thanks Rooster, for adding nothing to this debate.

[Rooster]

When people use words like "obviously" when they weren't there, it requires a correction since what is obvious is that armed combat is not something LTS has previously experienced.

Consider this: Army Rangers are a considerable step above your average trooper and yet they were involved in fratricide. If these professionals can be involved in a friendly fire incident, it stands to reason that in a dustup things are not so cut-and-dried where we in the safety of our homes can second guess what went on that day. Friendly fire happens. I hope none of you would suggest that he was marked to die at the hands of his comrades? Because to suggest there was a cover-up is to suggest just that.

Rooster

[LTS TRN 2]

C'mon, Rooster, they'd just eaten a goat in arid, terrified hunger. They literally couldn't see straight. They were about as prepared as the average grunt who was blown to shit on Iwo Jima. One of the shooters said he "saw a turban." Okay, so how many hundreds and thousands of innocent men, women and children have been blown to shit because some terrified undertrained, blind as a fucking bat racist grunt who needs a job, shoots--A LOT--at the least movement of anything...in a Danger Zone?

What part of your lobotomized fake headspace is still digesting the parrot shit of Rusp Limpdick?

Wakey Wake, Rooster--which, the last I checked was just a chicken.

There's nothing whatsoever noble, brave or honorable about the actions of ANY U.S. serviceman involved in the invasion of either Afghanistan or Iraq. It is, rather, a disgraceful act, all but identical to the fear huddled obedience of the Germans in WWII as they ploughed on, "fighting terrorists" as they invaded and sought to subjugate large foreign populations.

Go down, fascist war-freaks, and make a good sunset.

((and where'd the "Missus Haggard" thread go? BWWWAAAAaaaaa!)

[Rooster]

Whether they had eaten a goat because they were terrified or they were just plain hungry is defintely subject to debate. My fellow soldiers and I often bought food on the economy to give ourselves variety from the same ol' same ol' MREs issued to us. And seeing that goats are the typical livestock in that part of the world, it doesn't surprise me they would have eaten one. I'm quite certain that had a cow been available, they'd have chosen it for the steaks and tri-tip it has to offer, but you go with what's at hand.

I can also see ithat if they had been out on an extended mission which took them past the point of return to base for unexpected and unforeseen reasons, buying food from locals is an intelligent way to keep the troops fresh to continue the mission. It doesn't subject them to eating poorly prepared meals which might leave them susceptable to gastrointestinal problems and is, well, meat -- something most guys like to eat if given a choice between that and salads.

As for seeing a turban, if we assume that it is understood that was an area where combat was likely, the head covering would certainly give them a clear indication that they were not friendlies, even if, after the dust settled, they were US troops.

Most telling is not your rationale for why Tillman was shot and why there might be a cover-up, but that you cannot think of a single reason why intervention in Iraq or Afganistan would be necessary or beneficial. That points to your frame of reference more than any other argument concerning a friendly fire incident.

[smackaholic]

roost, you can not rationally discuss this with this shit troll. He is either just trolling to get a rise out of people or some ignorant hippy pos.

It's probably best to just ignore the shitstain.