Shafts

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:31 am

I'm getting ready to purchase a new set of sticks. I know jack shit about shafts.
Is the shaft stiffness I choose simply a function of my swing speed? Are there other factors that should determine what type of shaft I get?

TIA

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:56 am

this will cost you 9 bucks Ken.

need to know the following:

~what do you have
~how long have you used it
~what is your distance (6 iron)
~ what is your TRAJECTORY
~what are you looking to GAIN from the change
~shot pattern plus your heigth--->and divot pattern.

i'm 'certified PING'...i won't screw with you on this.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:16 pm

Qbert wrote:this will cost you 9 bucks Ken.

need to know the following:

~what do you have Tommy Armour EVO's, regular flex
~how long have you used it 4 years
~what is your distance (6 iron) 160
~ what is your TRAJECTORY low-medium
~what are you looking to GAIN from the change Get rid of my Tommy Armours, bwhaha. Really, bit more distance, more workability. I also just want to upgrade to a club w/better feel.
~shot pattern plus your heigth--->and divot pattern. I have a cut to my shots... maybe 5 yds on a 160 yd. shot. Most definitely NOT a slice. I'm not necessarily unhappy with the cut as it's controllable and never gets out of hand. Hell, I'm damn near HAPPY with the cut. If I need to control it, I can easily straighten it out with a slightly closed face, ball back in my stance a touch, and a shortened swing. I'm 5'11". Divot pattern is to the left of target... Maybe 10-15 degrees.

i'm 'certified PING'...i won't screw with you on this.

Rack you, Q. See above in bold. I knew you'd step up.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:17 pm

Qbert wrote:i'm 'certified PING'...i won't screw with you on this.

I knew you were an instructor, pro of some sort, but I didn'tknow this.
Next, we'll troubleshoot my Ping G2. :wink:

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:03 pm

Ken wrote:~what is your distance (6 iron) 160
~ what is your TRAJECTORY low-medium

Holy freaking christ...

How far does your husband hit his 6 iron?

Q-Bert is Equipment God. Know this.

Although...my Armour Ti100's (yup, titanium) have regular shafts(Aldila), and you know...I always wonder "why?"

For my money, throw the True Temper Dynamic Gold stiff steel ones on the irons, and call it done. And apparently, I'm not alone on that. One of my golf buds threw down a BUNCH of coin (did I mention "a BUNCH?") on a custom set, yet his irons sure seem to have True Tempers in them...actually, I think 2-4 might be graphite. I'm trying to remember the name of the company...maybe Q can help...DS, or something like that? Whatever brand it is, the driver is made out of some sort of nuclear materials, and dude has the swing to do it justice...fuck, scrawny little bastard will poke them 330 all day long.

Anyhow...I guess my point was -- strictly my opinion, but graphite shafts and irons just don't mix...sorry Q, I know your business benefits from people thinking otherwise, but virtually all of the good, accomplished players I know all swing steel.

Tiger Woods has True Temper Dynamic Gold in all of his irons, too...fwiw.

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:13 pm

Ken wrote:
Qbert wrote:this will cost you 9 bucks Ken.

need to know the following:

~what do you have Tommy Armour EVO's, regular flex
~how long have you used it 4 years
~what is your distance (6 iron) 160
~ what is your TRAJECTORY low-medium
~what are you looking to GAIN from the change Get rid of my Tommy Armours, bwhaha. Really, bit more distance, more workability. I also just want to upgrade to a club w/better feel.
~shot pattern plus your heigth--->and divot pattern. I have a cut to my shots... maybe 5 yds on a 160 yd. shot. Most definitely NOT a slice. I'm not necessarily unhappy with the cut as it's controllable and never gets out of hand. Hell, I'm damn near HAPPY with the cut. If I need to control it, I can easily straighten it out with a slightly closed face, ball back in my stance a touch, and a shortened swing. I'm 5'11". Divot pattern is to the left of target... Maybe 10-15 degrees.

i'm 'certified PING'...i won't screw with you on this.
Rack you, Q. See above in bold. I knew you'd step up.

1st off; i'd stay with regular flex shafts...since you don't hook it and your Trajectory is low/medium.

workability in an iron is one thing too--->your EVOs don't have a lot of offset and they don't have a DEEP cavity back--->so, i'd have to say that they're fairly "workable." granted, they're not a BLADE; but, if you want more "workability"....then your looking for Blades.

the thing with Blades--->you're not gonna gain much distance because the MFG's don't jack~up the Lofts.

FEEL--->go with something Forged (i.e. Mizuno)

initial recommendation: Mizuno MP60 forged/cavity back. (they're less offset than your EVOs)

get "fitted" for them--->be sure to hit off of a Lie Board. your Cut/Fade might be the result of the Toe of the club striking deeper in the ground than you think. i know that you mentioned that you cut across the ball; but, it won't hurt to check it. (for $850 bucks being spent...get FIT for them!)

something to consider: if you want more TRAJECTORY and possibly some more distance; consider looking at an iron that has a thicker Sole. (i.e. King Cobra 3100's, Taylor Made RACs)
you will probably hit these higher and a little farther (maybe 5-10 yds); you WILL sacrifice FEEL though.

you should go to a store that has a Simulator or a Driving Range with a full Pro Shop and compare 2-4 sets of irons with an "open mind."

let me know if you have any other questions.

Q

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:21 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Ken wrote:~what is your distance (6 iron) 160
~ what is your TRAJECTORY low-medium

Holy freaking christ...

How far does your husband hit his 6 iron?

HA!

Dynamic Gold Stiff flex shafts have a High Flex point....hence, Ken would hit those even LOWER...and probably shorter.

Graphite also retards FEEL. (yeah, he'd hit'em higher and probably farther...but, i don't think that's a good mix either.)

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:36 pm

Qbert wrote:Graphite also retards FEEL.

I seem to remember having a cavity back sandwedge with a graphite shaft. Since I doubt I threw a working club in the garbage, I must have given it away.

CAN'T STAND cavity back or graphite shafted wedges, although my PW is of the same set as my Armours, but it will get replaced one of these days...BTW, if I take a full swing with my PW, the balll won't be that far short of Ken's 6I). And one of these days, I'll find a gap wedge I like...and rest assured, it will be a blade with a steel shaft....maybe even a BeCu(like my well-worn Ram 55*...grooves are about half gone, and that BeCu still seems to put more spin on the ball than a steel head).

But really, when all is said and done, I'm not really that picky about clubs(as long as I like the feel). As my made-gamed(scratch) friend always says -- "It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:46 pm

Qbert wrote:1st off; i'd stay with regular flex shafts...since you don't hook it and your Trajectory is low/medium.

workability in an iron is one thing too--->your EVOs don't have a lot of offset and they don't have a DEEP cavity back--->so, i'd have to say that they're fairly "workable." granted, they're not a BLADE; but, if you want more "workability"....then your looking for Blades.

the thing with Blades--->you're not gonna gain much distance because the MFG's don't jack~up the Lofts.

FEEL--->go with something Forged (i.e. Mizuno)

initial recommendation: Mizuno MP60 forged/cavity back. (they're less offset than your EVOs)

get "fitted" for them--->be sure to hit off of a Lie Board. your Cut/Fade might be the result of the Toe of the club striking deeper in the ground than you think. i know that you mentioned that you cut across the ball; but, it won't hurt to check it. (for $850 bucks being spent...get FIT for them!)

something to consider: if you want more TRAJECTORY and possibly some more distance; consider looking at an iron that has a thicker Sole. (i.e. King Cobra 3100's, Taylor Made RACs)
you will probably hit these higher and a little farther (maybe 5-10 yds); you WILL sacrifice FEEL though.

you should go to a store that has a Simulator or a Driving Range with a full Pro Shop and compare 2-4 sets of irons with an "open mind."

let me know if you have any other questions.

Q

Props on all that, Q. Regular shafts it is.
I know I'm not getting blades, fyi. I'm a deec ball striker, but not good enough to warrant blades. But as much as I don't want to get blades, I don't want to get game improvement irons twofold. I wouldn't be able to stand looking down at a 5 iron that looks more like a hybrid. No way. And, like you said, I also don't want to lose 'workability' and 'feel', which I would.

I want something clean looking too. Nothing gaudy. Clean lines are a must. The local golf shop is getting rid of Titleist's now dicontinued 804 OS's. I really like 'em for the reasons stated just above. They just feel right. I hit several different irons (3,5,7) and they all felt pretty good. Do I need to be worried about the offset? I've read a lot on-line about the 804's offset and it didn't seem to bother anyone. Everyone said they could still wrok the ball well. Virtually all the reviews shed the 804's in good light.

FYI- Mizuno MP60's: No way is my wife lettin' me spend that kind of jack. She thinks golf is one big cash sink and unequivocally DETESTS the game because of that.

FYI2- No, I'm not looking for more trajectory as you stated I might be. I'm not unhappy with that, but wouldn't complain if it were a bit higher. I play a lot on the west coast where, as you know, can be quite windy. I like flying under the radar.

Thanks for the info and let me know what you think of the offsets.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:27 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Ken wrote:~what is your distance (6 iron) 160
~ what is your TRAJECTORY low-medium

Holy freaking christ...

How far does your husband hit his 6 iron?

I don't know many guys who get more than 170 out of their 6 iron. And I get paired up with all sorts of players when I play my local muni. 160 might be a little on the short side, but I'm guessing Ken doesn't finish short of the pin very often clubbing himself like that. Whereas most guys do.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:58 pm

BSmack wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
Ken wrote:~what is your distance (6 iron) 160
~ what is your TRAJECTORY low-medium

Holy freaking christ...

How far does your husband hit his 6 iron?
I don't know many guys who get more than 170 out of their 6 iron. And I get paired up with all sorts of players when I play my local muni. 160 might be a little on the short side, but I'm guessing Ken doesn't finish short of the pin very often clubbing himself like that. Whereas most guys do.

Word.
I'll bet if you canvassed amateur golfers like me, the vast majority would strike their 6-irons somewhere in the 160-165 range.
I already know I fall roughly around the 50th percentile w/respect to distance, so frankly, I didn't feel it was worth responding. ... and you're right BSmack, I pride myself in club selection. WAAAAAY too often do muni slugs like me consistently underclub. Me? Nope. A good shot is even sweeter when you figure your club selection based upon the actual distance, +/- wind, and +/- elevation. That's what makes the game so great.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:14 pm

I have to chime in here as well. I really don't see what's wrong with a 160-yard 6 iron. Personally I hit mine about 165. I do consider myself to a bit on the short side of average, but I'm not a total short knock either. Besides, it doesn't matter how far you hit your clubs as long as your honest with yourself and hit the right club for your game. I play with guys who are freaking long and I learned long ago to ignore the fact I'm hitting two clubs less than them sometimes.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:46 pm

Mook wrote:I learned long ago to ignore the fact I'm hitting two clubs less than them sometimes.

... and scoring two strokes less.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:02 am

Ken wrote:
Mook wrote:I learned long ago to ignore the fact I'm hitting two clubs less than them sometimes.
... and scoring two strokes less.

Sometimes yes and sometimes no!!

I'm lucky the guys I play with are all about the same ability scorewise, it makes for some fun matches without the headache of giving/getting shots.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:15 am

Mook wrote:I really don't see what's wrong with a 160-yard 6 iron. Personally I hit mine about 165. I do consider myself to a bit on the short side of average, but I'm not a total short knock either.

same here.....I love playing with guys that hit it farther than I do......

I've found that in most instances, if I stiff one they'll generally fold like a house of cards.......

their swings seldom hold up under pressure......

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:48 am

Damn...I hit a wedge 150...155-160 if I really catch it on the screws.

6 iron? 200.

course, I'd personally give up 3 clubs distance simply to have better accuracy. used to be able to throw darts hitting it that long.

btw, got XS shafts and still hook the fuck out of it on occasion. I think i need XXXS shafts. Would love to swing hard and work a fade without having to do an outside-in swing.

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:10 am

Indy

QUIT forward pressing on your iron shots and de-lofting your clubs....SHOW OFF!!!!!

FICK!

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:20 am

IndyFrisco wrote:Damn...I hit a wedge 150...155-160 if I really catch it on the screws.

My PW goes around 145, 150 if I had a second bowl of Wheaties.

6 iron? 200.

Before I got the titanium clubs, a 6 was 200-205.

I'd personally give up 3 clubs distance simply to have better accuracy.

Werd.

But, I probably keep my hands a little further in front of the ball than most...it's just more comfortable that way(and creates a more powerful wrist closing).

Mook -- there's nothing wrong with hitting any club any distance -- it's where it's sitting after it stops that matters. I/we just make a point to make fun of Ken's short distances every once in a while.

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:42 am

Ken

you live "near the Burgh???"...right????

go to Golf Galaxy, Dicks or *****Hacker's Helper (if they still exist)******...and look at what is on close-out.

804's have been done since early '05 (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

804's offset will "allegedly" only straighten your Shots.

OFFSET allows the golfer "more time" to square the hands...(i.e.) your Cut might not be as great.

if you LIKE the looks of the 804's...i can't imagine that you wouldn't like the Looks of A Lot of other iron sets.

Ken...if you're looking for a Deal...look at the Cobra 3100's...they're due to be on close-out (on the market for 2 years)...and they are/we're only $450 to start with.

i'm sure that you could get the Cobra's FITTED.

804's...fitted??? you'll have to take them to a repair shop...and trust them to bend them if necessary.

(if you're around Pittspuke) i won't be online over the weekend much...SO--->GO TO Dick's or the Galaxy and try some Irons on the Simulators...see for yourself.

make sure that you get a Lie Board Fitting!

BTW-->they are NOT on Comission. you'll get a fairly Honest anawer--->FYI.

YWIA

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:47 pm

Qbert wrote:Ken

you live "near the Burgh???"...right????

go to Golf Galaxy, Dicks or *****Hacker's Helper (if they still exist)******...and look at what is on close-out.

804's have been done since early '05 (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

804's offset will "allegedly" only straighten your Shots.

OFFSET allows the golfer "more time" to square the hands...(i.e.) your Cut might not be as great.

if you LIKE the looks of the 804's...i can't imagine that you wouldn't like the Looks of A Lot of other iron sets.

Ken...if you're looking for a Deal...look at the Cobra 3100's...they're due to be on close-out (on the market for 2 years)...and they are/we're only $450 to start with.

i'm sure that you could get the Cobra's FITTED.

804's...fitted??? you'll have to take them to a repair shop...and trust them to bend them if necessary.

(if you're around Pittspuke) i won't be online over the weekend much...SO--->GO TO Dick's or the Galaxy and try some Irons on the Simulators...see for yourself.

make sure that you get a Lie Board Fitting!

BTW-->they are NOT on Comission. you'll get a fairly Honest anawer--->FYI.

YWIA

Sounds good, Q. Will take all under consideration.
I think I did hit those Cobras the other day, Q. Also clean lines. I liked the 804's better. The ball felt like butter coming off the club. They were so friggin sweet. You told me to go in unbiased... from now on, it's gonna be damned hard for me to do.

btw, roughly how much does it cost to get fitted?
btw2, you say I'll get an honest answer 'cuz they're not on commission. That's not what I worry about. Trust me. I worry more that the Dick's golf dept. employee at that time knows nothing more about the golf swing than I do seeing as how he was most likely pumping gas the month before.

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:25 pm

Ken

a standard Fitting should included in the "selling price."

if you do any work on a Launch Monitor...then there would be a $$$ charge.

Galaxy and Dicks should BOTH have a PGA Pro on staff. ask for him to sit in on "the sale."

the 'Burgh is Dicks hometown. the 7/11 worker shouldn't be trying to sell you anything??!!! (go to multiple stores and compare.)

good luck and have fun.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:53 am

Dinsdale wrote: Mook -- there's nothing wrong with hitting any club any distance -- it's where it's sitting after it stops that matters. I/we just make a point to make fun of Ken's short distances every once in a while.

Gotcha

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:55 am

Qbert wrote:804's have been done since early '05 (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

Criminy how long have the 845s been done for? I've had 'em since the early, early 90's. Never had a problem with them. I've upgraded the driver and three wood, but not the irons.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:40 pm

Mook wrote:
Qbert wrote:804's have been done since early '05 (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

Criminy how long have the 845s been done for? I've had 'em since the early, early 90's. Never had a problem with them. I've upgraded the driver and three wood, but not the irons.

Yeah, I've really never had any reservations about purchasing discontinued clubs. My 845's were discontinued when I bought 'em at discount pricing many years ago. My EVO's were discontinued when I bought 'em at discount. Now, these 804's I just bought are discontinued.

I sure as hell ain't good enough of a player to be able to discern a difference between a new model and its predecessor... but my wallet sure as hell can. I can also assure you that any set I purchased, even discontinued, was an improvement over my old set... and that's all I really care about.

Speaking to that... took the 804's to the outdoor range yesterday. Man... BUTTER. They leave my EVO's in the dust not that that's a feat. I've got a higher trajectory (but not a balooning one) and more distance. Looks like I've now got one more club's worth of distance. Best and most importantly of all? I can still work it. It appears that I can work it a little more precisely than I could w/my previous clubs.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:43 pm

btw, mook... you should look at a new set. While the 845's still have a strong following, you'll find that if you upgraded, your game will improve.

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:03 am

845's = introduced in 1988 fyi.

good job Ken.

enjoy your new irons.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:06 pm

Seems like an excellent time to once again drop "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian, son."

I hear that all of the time...from my scratch-golfing bud who swings a custom set he's into for a few thousand bucks.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:13 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Seems like an excellent time to once again drop "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian, son."

I hear that all of the time...from my scratch-golfing bud who swings a custom set he's into for a few thousand bucks.

Which just goes to show that if the Indian doesn't like his arrows, he won't be bagging many buffalo.

Mook · Post by **Mook** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:33 pm

Ken wrote:btw, mook... you should look at a new set. While the 845's still have a strong following, you'll find that if you upgraded, your game will improve.

I really don't think the problem is with my clubs, this Indian is very happy with his arrows. My problem is that I don't have the time, or more importantly the inclination to go out and work on my game. I like to play and when I get a couple of extra hours I ain't going to spend them beating balls at the range. I'm gonna play, baby. My game is what it is, and I'm comfortable with it. Could it improve, certainly. But I'm satisfied with the way I hit the ball and score and that's really all that matters. I can have good days and awful days. I hope to have more of the former and less of the latter......but whatever, it's all fun.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:50 pm

Mook wrote:I like to play and when I get a couple of extra hours I ain't going to spend them beating balls at the range.

You and me both, brother. If I'm going to spend $7-9 and an hour or two with clubs in my hand, it sure the hell ain't going to be on the range.

Sure, no one in their right mind would argue that the range doesn't help your game leaps and bounds, but reality dictates that I'm not going to be playing on the PGA Tour anytime soon. Threfore, the only reason I'm there is to have fun...lots of fun.

And basically, if I have the time and whatnot, and get to play a couplefew times a week for an extended period, my game gets much better. If I only play sporadically(sup lately), then I stink worse than usual :shocker:

Although, I've always though buying clubs to compenstae for a messed up swing was pretty silly.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:20 pm

A little something on shafts for y'all to digest.

One of the biggest equipment faux pas that golfers make is playing with golf shafts that are too stiff for their swing. Most of this can be directly traced to the golfer's ego. Just like there are no men driving VW Beetles with those dainty flower holders, the macho factor won't allow male golfers to play anything less than a stiff flex.

However, it is important to understand just how shaft flexibility affects performance. After all, the shaft is often known as the "engine" of the golf club.

Theodore P. Jorgensen authored a book called "The Physics of Golf." He conducted several experiments to demonstrate that the shaft of the golf club during the golf swing actually bends forward at impact. Jorgensen provides a graph indicating that the clubhead lags behind the hands at the start of the downswing. However, by the time that the club is about horizontal to the ground, the clubhead catches up to the hands and eventually leads the shaft at impact.

This is counterintuitive to what most people believe. While all golfers acknowledge that the clubhead lags at the start of the downswing, most assume that it continues to lag until well after impact. Furthermore, it is commonly assumed that the more flexible the shaft, the more that the clubhead lags throughout the swing. Golfers assume these things because that's what it feels like during the swing. However, as with many things in golf, what you feel is not always what is real.

In reality, the shaft unloads during the downswing and kicks forward by impact, regardless of swing speed or shaft flex rating. Our hands simply cannot outpace the clubhead. In fact, the more flexible the shaft, the more that the clubhead will kick forward, increasing velocity and loft. Therefore, all other things being equal, softer shafts provide more distance and a higher trajectory than their stiffer siblings. This applies to all human-generated swing speeds, including that of Tiger Woods. Tiger himself acknowledges this phenomenon writing, "If I had weaker shafts I'd hit the ball farther just because there's more flex in the shaft and more kick in a regular-flex shaft than in the stiff shafts I use."

So why doesn't Tiger switch to "senior" flex shafts? While a more flexible shaft will provide more distance, the tradeoff is less control. It is simply much more difficult to control the clubface at impact with a more flexible shaft. The last thing that Tiger wants to do is to miss more fairways! For the rest of us, distance is probably our primary concern. Regardless, it is very important for us to play with the right flex for our unique swings. If you haven't done so already, I recommend that you visit your local golf retailer and get properly fitted. Finding the correct flex is fast, easy, and usually for free.

http://grouchygolf.blogspot.com/2006/10 ... gular.html