Hey Union Supporters...

It's the 17th Anniversary for T1B - Fuckin' A

Moderator: Jesus H Christ

Post Reply
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

As we all know airlines are struggling now. Flight departures are still less than half of what they were before the Covid. This is leading to grounding of planes, job losses and less connectivity for the majority of us. When airlines do fly it tends to be concentrated in the middle of the country and to leisure destinations.

Airlines started by asking for early retirements and voluntary separations. When that wasn't enough they asked unions for pay cuts to keep more of their members working. When that failed airlines furloughed some of their union employees.

My questions are these?

1) Why wouldn't a union support pay cuts for all members when it would keep more members working? We always hear unions talking about the greater good and all pulling the same direction. Not supporting the pay cuts clearly goes against that.

2) When furloughs happen it actually leads to increased costs for the airlines for the workers that remain. Instead of staffing a flight with Sr, mid career and new employees, after a furlough only the most senior and therefore most expensive employees remain. This increases the cost of staffing the flight, which can lead to further furloughs. How is this good for the union?

3) What benefit is there for a newish employee to join the union? If the union is just going to turn their back on the newish employees why should they join to begin with?
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
User avatar
Bill in Houston
Eternal Scobode
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:29 am

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Bill in Houston »

Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm
My questions are these?
Your veil is quite unbecoming.

You’re just as disingenuous as ever.

What you meant to ask is “why aren’t all unions dismantled and abolished for the benefit of the wealthy”.
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

Jsc810 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:25 pm
Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm When that wasn't enough they asked unions for pay cuts to keep more of their members working. When that failed airlines furloughed some of their union employees.
The Dallas Morning News reported that the CEO of American Airlines earned $12 million in 2018.

So did the airlines cut CEO and executive staff pay?

Just wondering.
If you read the DMN piece you would also have learned that he doesn’t take a salary or cash bonus. He is compensated entirely on stock. So when the airline does well he does well. When it is in the tank so is his compensation.

Further AA laid off 30% of their management and executive staff as well. So my question remains.


Good to see Bill is still the same and not answering direct questions but instead deflecting. Why not answer the questions Bill?
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
User avatar
Diego in Seattle
Rouser Of Rabble
Posts: 8780
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Duh

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Diego in Seattle »

Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:22 pm
Jsc810 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:25 pm
Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm When that wasn't enough they asked unions for pay cuts to keep more of their members working. When that failed airlines furloughed some of their union employees.
The Dallas Morning News reported that the CEO of American Airlines earned $12 million in 2018.

So did the airlines cut CEO and executive staff pay?

Just wondering.
If you read the DMN piece you would also have learned that he doesn’t take a salary or cash bonus. He is compensated entirely on stock. So when the airline does well he does well. When it is in the tank so is his compensation.
CEO's frequently guide companies in a direction that leads to short-term gains in stock price & compensation.

What is best for short-term gains is not necessarily what is best for the company in the long run. See Boeing. Tell me you knew...
“Left Seater” wrote:So charges are around the corner?
9/27/22
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

And another person who refuses to answer the questions. More look over here so we don’t have to address the question.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
User avatar
Bill in Houston
Eternal Scobode
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:29 am

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Bill in Houston »

Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm
1) Why wouldn't a union support pay cuts for all members
Because they won’t concede hard fought gains without something in return. What were they offered in return for pay cuts?
I know your answer “they get to keep their job”. And when is the pay returned? Made up to the union workers?
Maybe they should offer this:
How about what the CEO gets, compensate workers with 125% fair market stock value for each dollar of cash wage reduction, with no more than 90 day restrictions.
You good with that?
Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm 2) When furloughs happen it actually leads to increased costs for the airlines for the workers that remain.
Is this the same decision that management takes? Likely not. For the many of the same reasons.

Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm
3) What benefit is there for a newish employee to join the union? If the union is just going to turn their back on the newish employees why should they join to begin with?
A. To work their way up the ranks of seniority and receive the commensurate benefits.
B. Are they the first to be rehired? That would be why.
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

Paid in stock.
So he is a socialist masquerading as a capitalist at least for him because I don’t think his employees own a bunch of the company too.
BSmack
2005 and 2010 JFFL Champion
Posts: 29338
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:21 pm
Location: Lookin for tards

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by BSmack »

The highest paid workers all have either unions or trade associations that work to increase their pay and quality of work conditions. Even if you are not a member, those group benefits extend to you in the form of a higher prevailing wage.

That includes business owners who have the Chamber of Commerce and other professional organizations lobbying for them.

But Left Seater doesn't like this system.
"Once upon a time, dinosaurs didn't have families. They lived in the woods and ate their children. It was a golden age."

—Earl Sinclair

"I do have respect for authority even though I throw jelly dicks at them.

- Antonio Brown
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

At least Bill will offer up answers. Props for that.

1) Yes keeping union jobs should be the goal of the union, no? If all take a bit of a cut, all keep their jobs. Is that what unions sell their membership on? We are all in this together rhetoric.

Ask the jr members of the union if they are getting something from the pay reduction. You want to minimize the keeping jobs on the books, but that means a ton to those who hold those jobs. Will they ever see that pay back? Probably not. But don’t forget American gave their union employees raises outside of the union contract. The company shared with them, but now they are telling the company and fellow union members to pound sand?

As for paying employees in stock instead of cash, I would be all for it. But why the stock only for the lost wages? Why not go all the way and make all of their compensation stock?

2) Management cuts were across the board from C-suite to jr managers. Cuts were across all executive and management ranks. Instead of just cutting the lowest level and keeping the highest earners, they cut everywhere. This helps to keep costs down, rather than just cutting the lowest level earners.

3) How are Jr union employees able to work their way up when they are furloughed? Your take pits union members against each other. So these junior members are supposed to just sit at home for years on the hope they are rehired at some point? Just to resume their place on the chopping block when things turn south again?

Again why join a union and lose out on pay, when your union is just going to turn its back on its junior members.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

Bsmack and I both answered you, you fat greedy orange-jizz-stained kelpto.
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

BSmack wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:39 am The highest paid workers all have either unions or trade associations that work to increase their pay and quality of work conditions. Even if you are not a member, those group benefits extend to you in the form of a higher prevailing wage.

That includes business owners who have the Chamber of Commerce and other professional organizations lobbying for them.

But Left Seater doesn't like this system.
Please explain what association or union is working to increase my wife’s pay and working conditions? Her hard work, delivery of results and development of her staff has led to her income and benefits. Not some negotiated time in position pay scale. What work conditions need improving? Or do you mean doing less work for more pay?

Then please explain how the Chamber of Commerce increases the income of Seater Inc.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

Left Seater wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:32 am Seater Inc.
Everything we need to know about the orange klepto in two words.
User avatar
Diego in Seattle
Rouser Of Rabble
Posts: 8780
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Duh

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Diego in Seattle »

Some of us are old enough to remember former AA CEO Don Carty & how he lost his job....
“Left Seater” wrote:So charges are around the corner?
9/27/22
User avatar
smackaholic
Walrus Team 6
Posts: 21632
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: upside it

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by smackaholic »

LS does make a good point.

Unions are all about seniority. And making seniority the end all be all in a company comes at a price. It fukks the guy who doesn't yet have it.

This is especially true in public sector unions. It's all about when you "got in". Guys that have been around a long time who are on the old contract live like kings. Those on the new one, doing the exact same job are scraping by.

Some of this is normal. In any industry, on average, the more experienced are paid better for good reason. But it is case by case. It is organic.

And it is totally different conversation from executive compensations. I have my problems with them as well.
mvscal wrote:The only precious metals in a SHTF scenario are lead and brass.
User avatar
Diego in Seattle
Rouser Of Rabble
Posts: 8780
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Duh

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Diego in Seattle »

smackaholic wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:41 am And it is totally different conversation from executive compensations. I have my problems with them as well.
Go on. Go ahead & outline what you see the problems are & how those problems are to be resolved.

Failure to do so will further establish that your last sentence was just lip service.
“Left Seater” wrote:So charges are around the corner?
9/27/22
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

smackaholic wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:41 am LS does make a good point.

Unions are all about seniority. And making seniority the end all be all in a company comes at a price. It fukks the guy who doesn't yet have it.

This is especially true in public sector unions. It's all about when you "got in". Guys that have been around a long time who are on the old contract live like kings. Those on the new one, doing the exact same job are scraping by.

Some of this is normal. In any industry, on average, the more experienced are paid better for good reason. But it is case by case. It is organic.

And it is totally different conversation from executive compensations. I have my problems with them as well.
LS is a union busting klepto.
If we had mandatory worker ownership of company stock and whatnot we wouldn’t need unions as much. So embrace Marx, and unions and the transitory need for them will fade. Or don’t and see if the next titan of industry just happens to be a nice person and not a planet killing Vader.
User avatar
smackaholic
Walrus Team 6
Posts: 21632
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: upside it

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by smackaholic »

Diego in Seattle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:52 am
smackaholic wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:41 am And it is totally different conversation from executive compensations. I have my problems with them as well.
Go on. Go ahead & outline what you see the problems are & how those problems are to be resolved.

Failure to do so will further establish that your last sentence was just lip service.
I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe there isn't a good answer. What would you do? Have government dictate their salaries? Yeah, that would work well.

Maybe we should consider doing away with the stock option system, since it does reward short term thinking. Maybe set minimum time periods for exercising these options?

Can unions get in on the stock option racket? I don't see why not. Union members should pool their stock share resources and become a bigger part of the boardroom decision making process that comes up with executive compensation packages.
mvscal wrote:The only precious metals in a SHTF scenario are lead and brass.
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

Yes, there absolutely should be a minimum hold time for executives who are compensated or bonused in stock.

But these executives don’t compensate themselves. If you want to reduce their earnings then you need to discuss it with their Boards.


However, none of this has anything to do with the unions and their absolute disregard for jr members and in some cases mid career members.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
User avatar
Bill in Houston
Eternal Scobode
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:29 am

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Bill in Houston »

Left Seater wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:41 pm Yes, there absolutely should be a minimum hold time for executives who are compensated or bonused in stock.
This already exists in nearly all cases. The most common scenario is three years to vest and ten years to exercise.
Left Seater wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:41 pm But these executives don’t compensate themselves. If you want to reduce their earnings then you need to discuss it with their Boards.
Practically speaking they do, since they traditionally carry a great deal of influence in the boardroom. Corporate governance is improving in many places, but the good ol’ boys persist.
Left Seater wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:41 pm However, none of this has anything to do with the unions and their absolute disregard for jr members and in some cases mid career members.
Got it wrong again. The union is established to better rank and files employees. If the employer reduces the number of employees, the union still has the same purpose.

You want to blow up unions. So your thoughts about how they should function better is completely disingenuous.

You are an asshole.
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

Bill in Houston wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:51 pm
Got it wrong again. The union is established to better rank and files employees. If the employer reduces the number of employees, the union still has the same purpose.

You want to blow up unions.
You keep typing that, but it doesn’t make it true. How does not taking a pay cut across the board to save union jobs protect the rank and file? It actually pits the rank and file against one another.

As for blowing up unions I really don’t care. I don’t think forced union membership or forced fees should be a requirement of employment. But if people want to join a union and give away their pay that is on them. Why anyone would actively choose to have their talent and initiative ignored is also beyond me. But hey people do stupid things every day.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

Like how a pilot’s license shouldn’t be mandatory to fly.
User avatar
Diego in Seattle
Rouser Of Rabble
Posts: 8780
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Duh

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Diego in Seattle »

Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm As we all know airlines are struggling now. Flight departures are still less than half of what they were before the Covid. This is leading to grounding of planes, job losses and less connectivity for the majority of us. When airlines do fly it tends to be concentrated in the middle of the country and to leisure destinations.

Airlines started by asking for early retirements and voluntary separations. When that wasn't enough they asked unions for pay cuts to keep more of their members working. When that failed airlines furloughed some of their union employees.

My questions are these?

1) Why wouldn't a union support pay cuts for all members when it would keep more members working? We always hear unions talking about the greater good and all pulling the same direction. Not supporting the pay cuts clearly goes against that.
What did the company offer in return for these sacrifices? Did they offer to bring wages back to their previous levels when the pandemic is over, or even extra compensation to reward said sacrifice?
2) When furloughs happen it actually leads to increased costs for the airlines for the workers that remain. Instead of staffing a flight with Sr, mid career and new employees, after a furlough only the most senior and therefore most expensive employees remain. This increases the cost of staffing the flight, which can lead to further furloughs. How is this good for the union?
So what you're advocating for is for slots to be filled by "the 'ol boys network," thus allowing those who have put in the years & work to be furloughed because they haven't curried the favor of their managers?
3) What benefit is there for a newish employee to join the union? If the union is just going to turn their back on the newish employees why should they join to begin with?
Perhaps because they want to eventually have what the senior employees have. Perhaps because they don't want to be terminated w/o cause. Perhaps because they like their breaks, reasonable work hours & holidays. Perhaps because they want to have not only health care, but health care that is affordable.

"Those who fail to learn from history's mistakes are bound to repeat them."
“Left Seater” wrote:So charges are around the corner?
9/27/22
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

The company made it very clear that the 10% wage concession was to keep more employees on the job. Without the concessions, jobs would be lost. This is what the company is offering. However, the union seems to be saying to those that will be paid off, so what, who cares, we get to keep our full pay while you lose your job.

What are you rambling about an ole boys club. The current union system protects jobs based only on time in position ie seniority number. Taking a pay cut across the board to keep more jobs has nothing to do with a manager.

Your last point is finally getting to the truth. The carrot held in front of workers is hey someday you might make it up here and get paid more and have more time off. It isn’t guaranteed and we will shit on you now but you should thank us so that maybe possibly one day you can shit on those below you. Further unions members are the only ones with breaks, decent affordable health care etc. That can be found outside of unions all over the place.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
User avatar
Diego in Seattle
Rouser Of Rabble
Posts: 8780
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Duh

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Diego in Seattle »

Left Seater wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:23 pm The company made it very clear that the 10% wage concession was to keep more employees on the job. Without the concessions, jobs would be lost. This is what the company is offering. However, the union seems to be saying to those that will be paid off, so what, who cares, we get to keep our full pay while you lose your job.
No, they're saying that when the Covid recedes in (just pulling a date out of my ass) May or June what guarantees will you make that our wages will return to those pre-Covid numbers? And just like you want us to make a sacrifice now when times are tough how will you reward our efforts when times get better?
What are you rambling about an ole boys club. The current union system protects jobs based only on time in position ie seniority number. Taking a pay cut across the board to keep more jobs has nothing to do with a manager.
Are you really so naive to think that promotions & opportunities are based only on the basis of merit?

News flash: it's not.
Your last point is finally getting to the truth. The carrot held in front of workers is hey someday you might make it up here and get paid more and have more time off. It isn’t guaranteed and we will shit on you now but you should thank us so that maybe possibly one day you can shit on those below you. Further unions members are the only ones with breaks, decent affordable health care etc. That can be found outside of unions all over the place.
As far as the carrot of money? Workers rarely get it. And as far as time off...they're not looking necessarily for more time off. They're trying to hold Corporate America back from adopting their dream of adopting Karoshi.

You're saying that there's no relationship between unions & breaks? Care to show me a company with a union that treats their employees as badly as Walmart?
“Left Seater” wrote:So charges are around the corner?
9/27/22
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

Diego in Seattle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:56 pm No, they're saying that when the Covid recedes in (just pulling a date out of my ass) May or June what guarantees will you make that our wages will return to those pre-Covid numbers? And just like you want us to make a sacrifice now when times are tough how will you reward our efforts when times get better?
You mean like when American Airlines gave union employees raises mid contract with no concessions. Just sharing the wealth. So the company can give, but the union tells the company we would rather you layoff our employees so those with high seniority can keep full pay?

Diego in Seattle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:56 pm Are you really so naive to think that promotions & opportunities are based only on the basis of merit?

News flash: it's not.
At least outside of a union your merit and hard work has the potential for a raise and increased responsibility. A union takes away your incentive to work harder than the person next to you. Why should a flight attendant offer a pre-departure beverage service and the extra work that goes with that, if her fellow employee won’t do one but will get the same pay?

Diego in Seattle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:56 pm As far as the carrot of money? Workers rarely get it. And as far as time off...they're not looking necessarily for more time off. They're trying to hold Corporate America back from adopting their dream of adopting Karoshi.

You're saying that there's no relationship between unions & breaks? Care to show me a company with a union that treats their employees as badly as Walmart?
Wrong. I spent time in corporate America and had plenty of opportunities for advancement. Further I and others had bonuses tied to our personal performance as well as company results. Same for my wife.

As for your Walmart example I have no clue of the break structure for their employees. However, if the employees feel they are mistreated why don’t they apply at Target or Home Depot or Lowe’s or hundreds of other stores. Further if you feel it is an issue do t spend your money there.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
User avatar
smackaholic
Walrus Team 6
Posts: 21632
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: upside it

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by smackaholic »

Diego in Seattle wrote:
Left Seater wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:23 pm The company made it very clear that the 10% wage concession was to keep more employees on the job. Without the concessions, jobs would be lost. This is what the company is offering. However, the union seems to be saying to those that will be paid off, so what, who cares, we get to keep our full pay while you lose your job.
No, they're saying that when the Covid recedes in (just pulling a date out of my ass) May or June what guarantees will you make that our wages will return to those pre-Covid numbers? And just like you want us to make a sacrifice now when times are tough how will you reward our efforts when times get better?
What are you rambling about an ole boys club. The current union system protects jobs based only on time in position ie seniority number. Taking a pay cut across the board to keep more jobs has nothing to do with a manager.
Are you really so naive to think that promotions & opportunities are based only on the basis of merit?

News flash: it's not.
Your last point is finally getting to the truth. The carrot held in front of workers is hey someday you might make it up here and get paid more and have more time off. It isn’t guaranteed and we will shit on you now but you should thank us so that maybe possibly one day you can shit on those below you. Further unions members are the only ones with breaks, decent affordable health care etc. That can be found outside of unions all over the place.
As far as the carrot of money? Workers rarely get it. And as far as time off...they're not looking necessarily for more time off. They're trying to hold Corporate America back from adopting their dream of adopting Karoshi.

You're saying that there's no relationship between unions & breaks? Care to show me a company with a union that treats their employees as badly as Walmart?
I can show you plenty of companies without unions that treat employees pretty damn well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mvscal wrote:The only precious metals in a SHTF scenario are lead and brass.
User avatar
smackaholic
Walrus Team 6
Posts: 21632
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: upside it

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by smackaholic »

There are pros and cons to having a union. I can admit that. It’s a shame you union goons are all in and dare not say a word when they do something so obviously wrong as this case where giving up a few percent would save their union “brothers”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mvscal wrote:The only precious metals in a SHTF scenario are lead and brass.
User avatar
Diego in Seattle
Rouser Of Rabble
Posts: 8780
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Duh

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Diego in Seattle »

Left Seater wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:01 pm As we all know airlines are struggling now. Flight departures are still less than half of what they were before the Covid. This is leading to grounding of planes, job losses and less connectivity for the majority of us. When airlines do fly it tends to be concentrated in the middle of the country and to leisure destinations.

Airlines started by asking for early retirements and voluntary separations. When that wasn't enough they asked unions for pay cuts to keep more of their members working. When that failed airlines furloughed some of their union employees.

My questions are these?

1) Why wouldn't a union support pay cuts for all members when it would keep more members working? We always hear unions talking about the greater good and all pulling the same direction. Not supporting the pay cuts clearly goes against that.

2) When furloughs happen it actually leads to increased costs for the airlines for the workers that remain. Instead of staffing a flight with Sr, mid career and new employees, after a furlough only the most senior and therefore most expensive employees remain. This increases the cost of staffing the flight, which can lead to further furloughs. How is this good for the union?

3) What benefit is there for a newish employee to join the union? If the union is just going to turn their back on the newish employees why should they join to begin with?
And now a question for you....

Since the airlines were given a $25 BILLION bailout specifically for the purpose of retaining their employees should airlines now be required to immediately repay their grants for failing to comply with the conditions of their grants?
“Left Seater” wrote:So charges are around the corner?
9/27/22
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

smackaholic wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:22 am There are pros and cons to having a union. I can admit that. It’s a shame you union goons are all in and dare not say a word when they do something so obviously wrong as this case where giving up a few percent would save their union “brothers”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As long as there are sharks in the water fish know SOMEONE is getting eaten. So you can go on blaming the fish if you like, but seeing as you ARE a fish, that seems pretty stupid.
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

Diego in Seattle wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:04 am And now a question for you....

Since the airlines were given a $25 BILLION bailout specifically for the purpose of retaining their employees should airlines now be required to immediately repay their grants for failing to comply with the conditions of their grants?
Do you ever read anything or do you just bang on your keyboard hoping everyone will skip your lies?

The poorly written, hurried bailout of airlines shouldn’t have happened. Airlines and airports took far more money than they should have. In fact airline stock holders should have taken it on the chin first.

But the horribly written bailout only required airlines to keep employees thru the end of September. Furloughs didn’t begin until October. Same with service to small cities. Airlines were required to maintain service to every city they served as of March 1st until the end of Sept. There was also limits on executive compensation that are in place thru 2022.

So do you have a valid question or do you want to just withdraw your question?
Last edited by Left Seater on Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

The question is, why are you still sucking corporate cock after they stole money from the government and spent it on fat cat.
We, of course, know the answer, you disgusting orange nazi.
User avatar
Left Seater
36,000 ft above the chaos
Posts: 13257
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:31 pm
Location: The Great State of Texas

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Left Seater »

I will accept your silence as a withdrawal of the question.
Moving Sale wrote:I really are a fucking POS.
Softball Bat wrote: I am the dumbest motherfucker ever to post on the board.
Kierland

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Kierland »

What a twat.
Innocent Bystander
Koko B1
Posts: 4558
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Innocent Bystander »

Kierland wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:30 pm What a twat.
Diego and Left Seater BOTH asked excellent questions, Kierland.
User avatar
Bobby42
Natural Man
Posts: 2071
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:20 am
Location: Buckeye Nation

Re: Hey Union Supporters...

Post by Bobby42 »

In general, Unions don't have the leverage of years past. Leadership is out of touch with membership. They can’t unite or decide upon issues and what they present during negotiations are trivial things. I’m not anti-union, meaningful discussions between Union and the Employer are essential. Just don’t waste time asking for bullshit things.
"So let it be written; so let it be done."
Post Reply