Organized religion is thankfully headed towards Extiction

[Smackie Chan]

If a Mormon wants to claim that Joseph Smith was right, Mormonism is the truth, and he wants to present the Book of Mormon to me as evidence of that, I'll be glad to take a look at his... evidence.

So some Christians are more right than others? What denomination are you?

[poptart]

No, there isn't. That's why they call it faith. If you are quoting the bible to prove the veracity of the bible, you are just sucking your own dick.

The Bible, 66 separate Books authored by 40 different people, is not evidence that Jesus is the Christ?

No evidence at all?

lol

as long as pops is around, this will always be relevant

I really do think you have a mental block of some sort.


You take Moby Dick, War and Peace, The Great Gatsby, The Iliad and Wuthering Heights, and put 'em all together in one big binder.

Call it whatever you want.
On the Shitter, maybe.

Does the fact that you bound these books up in one big binder make them... one book?


Among countless other things...
There are four separate Gospel accounts.
Four SEPARATE Books.

There are five SEPARATE authors who made predictions about the place, time, and very specific and narrow family line through which the Messiah would come.
Moses with 6 predictions.
Then Isaiah
Jeremiah
Micah
Daniel
If any of these men's predictions were wrong, it would all break down the next prediction would be a fail.

But we have is the Man Jesus then coming hundreds of years later in this EXACT and narrow way.

This alone is eye-opening, to say the very least.



The Bible not one source, Felix.

Do pause and consider what you are posting.

[smackaholic]

Put me in the column of those who don't need the fear of eternal damnation in order to treat other humans with respect and love.

Up to this point, I've not raped, pillaged, stolen, killed, etc. I'm counting on making it to Knoxville without ever having done any of those things.

what's knockville's stance on serial divorcers?

[poptart]

Architectural marvels (Giza pyramids), no doubt. But I'm talking about man's understanding of our planet's history and the solar system. You're saying we are no more educated today than people were when they believed Earth was flat and at the center of the universe?

Basically, yes, I'm saying that.

I'd say a lot more about this, but I know people are not prepared to hear it.

:wink:



Btw, the Giza Pyramids are much more than architectural marvels.
And we see other similar ancient marvels (pyramids and other structures) around the world.

[kcdave]

Whether you are a believer or not, there is only one undeniable fact. Ain't nobody changing nobody else's mind on this subject.

[trev]

Yeah, I don't think anyone here will change their mind. They've been doing this for years. It's kinda interesting to read.

[poptart]

Matthew 24

Jesus talking about his return, trumpets playing, and at verse 34: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus (supposedly) said it, but as we know, it didn't happen.

So much for Biblical predictions.

Silly.

In Matthew 24, Jesus describes what events will take place in the last generation.
Then in verse 34 He says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

THIS generation is clearly referring to the generation He is talking about.
Yes, the generation that sees these events.


You should seriously stop scouring "debunking Christianity" sites.
Most of them post the MOST ridiculous things.
Filling your head with fabrications.

[Diego in Seattle]

If a Mormon wants to claim that Joseph Smith was right, Mormonism is the truth, and he wants to present the Book of Mormon to me as evidence of that, I'll be glad to take a look at his... evidence.

And that's exactly how we feel about your whole bible thing.

You must not be paying attention at all.

Jsc has said repeatedly that he does not even consider the Bible to be evidence.

Which is why I was directing my comment towards you & not Jsc, dummkopf. You're the one that's claiming it is evidence.

[poptart]

You're the one that's claiming it is evidence

It doesn't even need to be a claim.
It's obvious that the Bible is evidence of Jesus Christ.
The overriding purpose of the Bible is to give testimony to Him.

I've been presented with the Book of Mormon.
I've considered the Mormon evidence.


Have you considered the evidence of the Bible, or have you waved it off as Jsc has, not even considering it as evidence?

[Atomic Punk]

Have you considered the evidence of the Bible, or have you waved it off as Jsc has, not even considering it as evidence?

Ped0 among many others are determined to go to Hell. They are unknowing pawns of Satan. The last words they will ever hear are: "I never knew you. Depart from me." Matthew 7:23

[Diego in Seattle]

You're the one that's claiming it is evidence

It doesn't even need to be a claim.
It's obvious that the Bible is evidence of Jesus Christ.
The overriding purpose of the Bible is to give testimony to Him.

I've been presented with the Book of Mormon.
I've considered the Mormon evidence.


Have you considered the evidence of the Bible, or have you waved it off as Jsc has, not even considering it as evidence?

I generally don't give much credence to books that talk about dudes being swallowed by whales, much less surviving such an unlikely incident.

[Felix]

The Bible not one source, Felix.

Do pause and consider what you are posting.

so which books are we talking about? the books that were voted on as being the "word of god" or all of the other books that were voted to not be the "word of god"? how many times has "the word of god" been edited?

what you've got is a collection of 2,000 year desert scribblings.....

[poptart]

Organized religion is horseshit. It's pretty much a business & nothing else.

This is not accurate.

There are good reasons for Church.
Many, many reasons.

We have instructions given by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20, and Acts 1:8.
Missionaries will not be sent and world evangelism will not occur without Church, or "organized religion," as you put it.

[poptart]

so which books are we talking about? the books that were voted on as being the "word of god" or all of the other books that were voted to not be the "word of god"? how many times has "the word of god" been edited?

what you've got is a collection of 2,000 year desert scribblings.....

The Apostle John, who was chosen by, and who walked with Jesus, wrote this in his account.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The overriding purpose of Scripture is to give testimony that Jesus is in fact the promised Christ.
He IS the Word.

Someone can read books from the Apocrypha, for example, if they want to.
But know that no Apocryphal book was written by a Prophet and none of them were included in Hebrew Scripture.
Jesus quoted Old Testament Scripture many times, yet not a single time did He quote from the Apocrypha.


What evidence can you show that demonstrates that the Word has been "edited" anywhere remotely close to making it contrary to a supposed earlier meaning?
No, nearly all "edits" we see from previous manuscripts are minor, SO minor, that they come nowhere close to fabricating a message that Jesus is the Christ.
And the four Gospels all have people relaying the same fundamental message and testimony to us.

[smackaholic]

[
I generally don't give much credence to books that talk about dudes being swallowed by whales, much less surviving such an unlikely incident.

Let's leaves Dinsdale's personal life out of this, OK.

[Goober McTuber]

I generally don't give much credence to books that talk about dudes being swallowed by whales.

:rumple:

[Felix]

I generally don't give much credence to books that talk about dudes being swallowed by whales, much less surviving such an unlikely incident.

but you're taking it out of context.....nobody ever said it was a whale, it was a "big fish" so you're whole assertion that jonah was swallowed by a whale is a fail......

The Apostle John, who was chosen by, and who walked with Jesus, wrote this in his account.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The overriding purpose of Scripture is to give testimony that Jesus is in fact the promised Christ.
He IS the Word.

What evidence can you show that demonstrates that the Word has been "edited" anywhere remotely close to making it contrary to a supposed earlier meaning?

what evidence can you present me that proves to me that John the Apostle was the author of the gospels attributed to him? according to Dr. Craig L. Blomberg (who is a fundamentalist christian and biblical scholar) he concluded the gospels are in fact anonymous"......most biblical scholars believe the gospels were not written by the credited authors, but rather were based on their teachings......so at best, we have the gospel according to John as a second hand account....why is it that the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (clearly some of the most important writings in the new testament) were unknown until referrenced by Irenaeus in his writings around 180 AD? You'd think important texts like the life history of the son of god would be pretty important stuff....and why is it that even the gospels contradict each other.....there are numerous times when these writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John can't even agree on the most basic "history" (you know, things like who found the tomb where Jesus was allegedly laid, who they found at the tomb-all four of the gospels say something different).....

No, nearly all "edits" we see from previous manuscripts are minor, SO minor, that they come nowhere close to fabricating a message that Jesus is the Christ. And the four Gospels all have people relaying the same fundamental message and testimony to us.

relaying the same fundamental information, yet unable to stick with the same story.....you biblical apologists crack me up.....

let me ask you a question tart, if I was to send you PDF's of two books, would you be willing to read them?
the books are titled
On the Historocity of Jesus Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt by Richard Carrier
The Christ Myth Theory and It's Problems by Robert McNair
if yes, send me a PM with an email address, if not, why not?

[poptart]

what evidence can you present me that proves to me that John the Apostle was the author of the gospels attributed to him?

Considering no manuscript of the Writing has been found which attributes itself to having been written by someone other than the Apostle John, I think you'd have a hard time trying to prove that it wasn't written by him, Felix.
lol

Long story cut very short on this topic, Felix...

There were two Johns of note surrounding the life of Jesus Christ.
John the Baptist and John the Apostle.

The three other Gospel writers all made a distinction between the two, making note to call John the Baptist, just that.
The Baptist, or the Baptizer, so as not to confuse him with John the Apostle.

Yet in the Gospel of John, the writer simply calls (more than 20 times) John the Baptist... John.
The writer makes no distinction between John the Baptist and John the Apostle.

OBVIOUSLY, the writer did this because he saw absolutely no reason TO make a distinction.

Yes, because the writer knew it was clearly understood by those reading his writing (various Churches) that HE was John the Apostle and that when he said John, he was speaking of John the Baptist.


John wrote the Gospel of John, Felix.
And this was unanimously understood by the early Christian Church.

there are numerous times when these writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John can't even agree on the most basic "history"

The Gospel writers followed Jesus for a few years, and they all relayed the same basic and critical information.
They also relayed many of the same incidents.

Think about it...

When people relay info about an incident (say a car accident, for example), they relay what they see as important, and they also relay what they saw from THEIR PERSPECTIVE and POINT OF VIEW.

If Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote everything that was done over three years exactly the same, to every detail, you would be the first one screaming collusion.

So just give it up.
These fantasy issues which seek to debunk the Bible will never cease.
Don't get tangled up there.

We have four accounts of the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He fully proved Himself.
Jesus surely IS the promised Christ.


You can feel free to send me info if that's what you want to do.
I'll be glad to read it as I have time.
People have sent me things in the past.
No problem.

I'll PM you.

[Python]

Rack pop.

[War Wagon]

Rack pop.

2nd.

Unbelievers pile on him unmercifully, which is to be expected.

Ridicule, scorn, nail him to the cross figuratively and literally.

He knows it, I know it, everyone knows that's what going to happen.

But a true man of faith is called to be a witness and that's exactly what brother 'tart does, in spades. Has for years, there aren't enough Racks.

Now then, if he could just get over his Raiders fetish... nobody is perfect.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Architectural marvels (Giza pyramids), no doubt. But I'm talking about man's understanding of our planet's history and the solar system. You're saying we are no more educated today than people were when they believed Earth was flat and at the center of the universe?

Basically, yes, I'm saying that.

I'd say a lot more about this, but I know people are not prepared to hear it.

Bring it. This oughta be good.

[poptart]

You'd have to open up a new forum.
No thanks.

We'll just let sleeping dogs lie... for now.


:wink:



Just suffice it to say, I question (to put it mildly) a lot of what we've been told, taught and indoctrinated into accepting.

[R-Jack]

Smooth one, Poptoolio.

[The State]

Rack pop.

2nd.

Unbelievers pile on him unmercifully, which is to be expected.

Ridicule, scorn, nail him to the cross figuratively and literally.

He knows it, I know it, everyone knows that's what going to happen.

But a true man of faith is called to be a witness and that's exactly what brother 'tart does, in spades. Has for years, there aren't enough Racks.

Now then, if he could just get over his Raiders fetish... nobody is perfect.

The "nut-job" posse... is in full-effect.


I'm shocked... (Louisiana, Missouri, and a deported citizen) are involved.






Too funny.

[poptart]

I'm coming from the viewpoint that God created man in His image. That means you are created with knowing what is right and wrong. For those of you (most that post on this board) that deny God's existence, have that image in you at birth. The fact that you deny it means you are following your master, Satan... who wants you to falsely believe there is no God.

This is right.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Man is the only thing God created which is in His image - meaning we, like God, are a spiritual being.

We naturally seek fulfillment -- something to interest and captivate us.
We focus our energy and our mind on something.
We even put our heart into it.

But it is the incorrect object of our great attention, because man was made to be w/God and to be at peace that way. Genesis 1:26-28.
We could call these things we put our heart and energy into... idols.

Because we are misdirected, we develop (or have) mental issues.
Not that everyone is nut house crazy, but some are -- but we have neurosis.
Sleeplessness, anxiety, irrational phobias, nightmares, compulsions, anger, addictions, and we do things we know we ought not do.

Then we become ill -- or develop physical problems.
And they compound.

We die.
And there is a judgment - Hebrew 9:27.
Because people have followed satan, they naturally go where satan goes. That is hell.

It's bad enough, but it's not even the end.
The very same negative characteristics (or spiritual problems) you had are passed right down to -----> your children.
Exodus 20:4-5.
They begin their suffering just as you did.

This is absolutely the resume of man.
You will not get out of this, I promise you.
It doesn't matter if you think you'll live a good life, don't kill, steal, rape anyone, or do much at all wrong -- and that God will see you as okay (if He is there).
You remain within this resume - and whatever issues you currently have will only magnify over time.

That is why upon man entering this resume, God immediately promised the One Who would break down satan who brought this problem to us -- and liberate us, eternally.
Genesis 3:15.
See Isaiah 7:14, 1 John 3:8, Matthew 16:16.

I am telling you the Truth - and you can feel inside that you know it is the Truth.

Jesus Christ, Who is God Himself, came and fulfilled the Old Testament completely.
It is remarkable, comprehensive and absolute.

Claim it.

[Dinsdale]

Let the cognitive dissonance continue.

To be honest, I haven't read it all. I'll assume that they get into the fact that in the "4 FUCKING BOOKS ARE DEFINITIVE PROOF!!!", that the writing styles radically change mid "book," offer almost irrefutable proof that they were amended by different authors (60 years after-the-fact).

[poptart]

4 FUCKING BOOKS ARE DEFINITIVE PROOF!!!

The four Gospels are not definitive proof.

They are four separate testimonies of the events surrounding the Life, Ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Matthew and John were apostles and eyewitnesses to Jesus' Ministry.
Luke was a physician and companion of Paul. He met and wrote on behalf of witnesses to Jesus Christ, and the events surrounding Him. Luke 1:1-4 and Acts 1:1-3.
Mark was a disciple of the Apostle Peter.

The four men wrote what they wrote.

People are free to take their accounts as they will.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Just suffice it to say, I question (to put it mildly) a lot of what we've been told, taught and indoctrinated into accepting.

...yet you do not question any of the Tolkien-esque fantastical elements of the Bible written by second and third hand accounts from people whose authenticity can never truly be verified.

Sounds reasonable.

[poptart]

Of course I questioned -- and there are to this day, many things I wonder about the Bible.
I was once a pretty hardened skeptic.
And as I've said, there were not many things I hated more as a child than spending Sunday at Church.

But there are two things...

1. There is a new Life and a new understanding a person has when they believe in Jesus Christ.
This is not such an easy thing to describe.
Man truly IS a spiritual being.

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

There IS this power.

That's why I give the testimony in here that I do.
I'm not here to bullshit.
You should take what I post to heart.

#1 is spiritually speaking.
And #2...


2. Intellectually speaking...

The man Jesus came and COMPLETELY fulfilled the Old Testament promises.
He IS the fulfillment of all OT Scripture -- and it is truly phenomenal.
It is comprehensive and it is not something I could rationally deny.
I've explored it.

So in looking at the all of the Scriptures (and the things you cite), I believe all of it.

[War Wagon]

yet you do not question any of the Tolkien-esque fantastical elements

Now wait just a damn minute... you mean to say there isn't an actual place called Mordor and that the Misty Mountains don't really exist?

I call bullshit.

[Felix]

Unbelievers pile on him unmercifully, which is to be expected.

Ridicule, scorn, nail him to the cross figuratively and literally.

He knows it, I know it, everyone knows that's what going to happen.

that is absolute horseshit wags and I'd be willing to bet you that tart would agree.......I've said numerous times that I have a lot of admiration and respect for tart because of his commitment to his beliefs.....tart and I go back along time and we used to have some great discussions in the theology forum before some imbecile decided for some unknown reason to do away with that forum...never did understand why it was removed, it wasn't hurting anyone and these types of discussions were held in that forum....if people wanted to join in, the forum was open to anyone.....so, in an act of blind stupidity somebody with keys to the place decided to just burn it down.....

insofar as ridicule and scorn, yes I ridicule and scorn the bible, but I don't intentionally ridicule or mock people that believe in it, I just try and understand why it is that people still adhere to their beliefs.....but rest assured I'm an equal opportunity scoffer....I have just as much disdain for the morman religion as I have islam and christianity.....but the bible itself addresses the topic of people being criticized and mocked for their beliefs, and there are numerous passages in the bible that address that very issue....hey to each their own and so long as their beliefs don't impinge on my freedom from religion, it's cool....do I think it's wrong to put up a ten commandments monument on public owned land? absolutely because that clearly violates separation of church and state and favors one religion over another.....

as far as tart goes, he's a solid cat and probably one of only a few people (outside of the jackasses) on this board that I consider to be something of a fliend.....yeah, an interwebs fliend but a fliend none the less.....

[Goober McTuber]

Unbelievers pile on him unmercifully, which is to be expected.

Ridicule, scorn, nail him to the cross figuratively and literally.

He knows it, I know it, everyone knows that's what going to happen.

that is absolute horseshit wags and I'd be willing to bet you that tart would agree.......

No, no. We have literally nailed him to a cross. I was there. He cried like a little girl.

[poptart]

When you questioning and blindly accept the dogma you've entered the No Brain, No Pain zone

2. Intellectually speaking...

The man Jesus came and COMPLETELY fulfilled the Old Testament promises.
He IS the fulfillment of all OT Scripture -- and it is truly phenomenal.
It is comprehensive and it is not something I could rationally deny.
I've explored it.

The evidence that Jesus IS indeed the Christ is overwhelming.

People do one of two things.

1. They don't look at the evidence, or they've never seen the evidence.

2. They turn their brain off, deny it, or act as if it is not there.

[War Wagon]

act as if it is not there.

oh, they know it's there alright, thus the strident denunciations.

The following will never not be true, for any of us.

[Dinsdale]

BUT IT'S PROOF!!!!!


Because everyone is lying except 4 anonymous authors.\

CognitiveDissonanceTart -- there's overwhelming evidence that everything you've been indoctrinated to believe is clearly bullshit. Overwhelmimg historical evidence.

[War Wagon]

BUT IT'S PROOF!!!!!

Interesting article, worthy of a lengthy read, but slanted towards a certain disbelief system nonetheless. Kinda' like the debate over climate change. Who are you going to believe, scientists or the evidence of your lying senses?

It really went off the rails when it talks about the influence of The Holy Spirit... because unless you've experienced that, you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

I've experienced it, briefly, and I am a back slider. But once you have that experience, you never doubt its reality again. It's still there, for you or me, if you are willing to ask for and accept that maybe, just possibly... it's not all a crock of shit.

CognitiveDissonanceTart -- there's overwhelming evidence that everything you've been indoctrinated to believe is clearly bullshit. Overwhelmimg historical evidence.

Do you accept that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west?

That there are (approximately) 24 hours in a day and 365 days in a year?

Do you accept that we live in the year 2015?

If so, why?

They are all (supposedly) man made constructs.

Or perhaps there is a God, and you, Felix and Scott aren't that higher power.

God works in mysterious ways, it has been said. I haven't got anything figured out just yet (see The Who video), but I see him/her/it working.

[poptart]

BUT IT'S PROOF!!!!!


Because everyone is lying except 4 anonymous authors.\

CognitiveDissonanceTart -- there's overwhelming evidence that everything you've been indoctrinated to believe is clearly bullshit. Overwhelmimg historical evidence.

The evidence that Jesus is the Christ extends beyond the testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Far, far, FAR beyond.

If you've decided that the testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are a fraud, you don't have to believe them, Dins.
It's easy.

I will tell you, though, that I've never seen any man get out of the resume that I posted above.
And the Bible says that nobody has or will get out of it.

[Dinsdale]

The evidence that Jesus is the Christ extends beyond the testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

I see.

So, you've gone from "IT'S THE DEFINITIVE PROOF!!!!!", to "Ok, that's not really my proof," when presented with extremely strong evidence that belies your "proof" (and please don't embarrass yourself by claiming you haven't cited the easily refuted Gospels as "proof," since you couldn't delete all the instances on this board in a month of wasted Sundays).

That's really... quite... Christian of you.

You can either keep moving the goalposts, or come to grips with your cognitive dissonance... doesn't affect me either way.

[Dinsdale]

I've experienced it

So has many a Muslim, Buddhist, and **Insert Religion Here**


Could be a human psychology thing, rather than an "I'm right" thing, eh?

[smackaholic]

Here is the most fukked up part of the whole thing.

Let's assume every last bit of the whole g0d/jeeebus deal is true.

This makes him the all time biggest POS, evah.

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, Pol Pot?

Fukking pikers, every one.

His excuse?

Your great x infinity granddaddy listened to some broad's dietary advice.

This is sooooo fukking worse than "I was following orders".